GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #1

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You know...I was toying with the idea. We know her room was staged. (In whatever shape or form)
Now then why would JG got a lot of blood over her? Which I'm sure if someone could check the credibility of the dna if there was any taken on something JG had been wearing around that time. That she took off.
What if Ellie had been moved. The so called incident didn't happen in her room. But somewhere else. There was enough blood residue around both hers and Ellie's both very recent.
Becuz idk this whole scenario seems off to me.
There's no blood splatter in Ellie's room.
And yet BB tripped up on the bloodied cushion in the living room n said "oh that was the other day when Ellie fell and hurt herself chasing the puppy. She was concussed and vomited blood"
To be fair. I'd give him the benefit of the doubt. But who leaves a dirty bloodied. Vomited on cushion. In situ? You'd NOT leave it there for 24+ hours. Especially with another youngster and puppy in the house... meh

As I said just a thought. As things do not tie up.

Jmoo :)



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Tortoise said:
Just a bit on JG's blood trail in the house.

Ellie's bedroom floor, hallway, bathroom and edge of bath.
Also on the front of the washing machine, tiled wall behind the kitchen sink and corner of bathroom cabinet.
Expirated blood, or from an object soaked with her blood being carried.
Blood on the towel dumped in the bins.

He said there was no fight. It was quiet, other daughter was there so he wouldn't have done that, neighbours heard nothing. Old blood on the towel in the bins was from her abortion.

Brown said there was also blood staining on her light blue shirt in the washing machine that had not come out in the 40 degree wash.

BB denied there was any wet shirt in the washing machine, said the police found it in the house and planted it.
Click to expand...

Bumping this back upthread so it is adjacent to Gigi's last query about blood, staging, spatter etc..... because it is all perplexing. Maybe someone else can suggest an answer because in the absence of recent wounds on JG it isn't making sense for me. ( PS we know around the time JG got home neighbours testified to hearing child crying( youngest?) and also heard Butler shouting. So yes, it's very plausible he could have attacked JG when she reacted to Ellie's lifeless body, but why no JG wounds revealed in court? A nose injury/bleed or a mouth/tooth bleed and no-one tested her and no bruises even when cops interviewed her the next day?)

Only other account, as previously posted is from Pros forensics analyst, just for reference:
E's blood: "Ellie's pillow was found stained with her blood after she was allegedly battered to death by frustrated house husband Ben Butler, 36, at their Sutton home. Blood on a sofa cushion in the living room was also found to match her DNA profile .....Wet dilute blood from Ellie Butler had been deposited onto the pillow,....
JG's blood: The girl's mother Jennie Gray, 36, left a trail of her own blood spatters along the walls of the hallway outside Ellie's bedroom to upstairs bathroom...appeared to be 'recent' and could have been caused by an 'impact' to Gray.*In my opinion a bleeding Jennie Gray or an object wet with her blood had dripped blood onto the floor of Ellie Butler's bedroom and that drip-blood trail continued along the hallway into the bathroom."
Click to expand...
 
Tortoise said:
:panic:

I'm trying. I really am. I was 100% certain. Until I read some of that defence expert stuff I posted. :gaah:
Click to expand...

Tortoise, this is the link I meant to post last night , it's the sort of thing Brown will have read. It's written by American D.A. Assocn as a legal advice docu for prosecutors on child head trauma & SBS cases , as to how to navigate through the science and spurious claims. ( published 2011)

Peppa Pig & a stool or bed fall - ie. just on fatalities from a short fall, it says, looking at US data:
Accurate Science: The risk of a short fall causing fatal injuries in infants is less than one in a million.
In 2008, Dr. Chadwick conducted a meta-analysis explicitly to ascertain the mortality rate of children under the age of five who fell short distances (under three feet).
Chadwick found that the risk of a fatal injury was 0.48 children per million in cases of reported short falls.
In a study of 207 children under five years old who fell from hospital beds, Lyons and Oates found no resulting brain injuries.
In large daycare centers, where a child’s fall is likely to be witnessed, there is not a single published, peer-reviewed, medical account of a child dying from a fall. A review of the literature by Dr. Rieber concludes “major injuries nearly always result from major impacts and serious falls.”
Click to expand...

Dr. Janice Ophoven is also cited in there and her claims on SBS. As is the science about 're-bleeds' & birth brain trauma as it pertains to SBS and the 2007 conviction

http://www.ndaa.org/pdf/Abusive HeadTrauma_NDAA.pdf
 
Wobble over. I'm not going to court today btw.

I think there are two issues here, for me. One is this second impact syndrome, how a brain that is concussed a second time before the first has healed can be fatal. The other is Ellie's smashed skull.

I am not satisfied that any theory can explain away not just the science behind multiple brain traumas, but the impact that would have been required to break Ellie's skull. One is to do with the brain and the other is to do with the bone. If Ellie had died from brain injury only, I would entertain a bump/fall/rapid head movement, but nothing has been put forward to explain why her skull caved and shattered. A difficult birth does not cause diseased or weak bone or inability to feel pain from broken bones. Why did she have a skull weakness but her other bones didn't regularly break in falls? Yes there was a broken scapula but that is not a common break, and doesn't explain why she would not have been in pain. A child falling will put out their hands, but no broken fingers or wrists.

There are too many absurdities here for me to have to accept with his defence -

2nd concussion
Plus skull susceptible to breakage in short fall, but not other commonly broken bones
no pain
no restriction of arm movement
two black eyes in 4 months - and why specifically a black eye both times from falling into stairs? the eyes are protected by the surrounding bone but something badly bruised her actual eyelid and not her nose or her eyebrow line, except when she was wearing her glasses and they were pushed into the bridge of her nose. Why then didn't her glasses protect her surrounding eye area?
no untoward medical history for 6 years
it only happens when he is around - not at school, with her grandparents, while they are under supervision of social workers, or when he is out.

It's BS.

I'm not as concerned as you Gigi about there being no blood impact site on the walls or another hard surface. I think a very fast slam or two of a head / quite a thick skull against a hard surface would not produce an instant blood spatter. Her head is away from the hard surface in a second. I think the bleeding was mostly internal from her brain and between the membranes which are quite deep below the bone, over the ensuing seconds and minutes. Ellie was laying on the floor when the paramedics arrived, so there must have been an area on the floor that was stained from this boggy area they felt, but I don't think it's been reported in detail. How her pillow was involved I don't know.

I think Judge Wilkie was correct when he said BB's idea was to be seen outside the house and give the impression on the 999 call that he was only just coming upon it and asking JG what had happened. In his testimony he has hidden quite a lot behind the shock and not being able to remember why he said things or what he did during that 2 hours. It was more than two hours actually because he laid down on the floor before he made any phone calls.

I'm pleased they can tell from the different stages of bone healing that the scapula break and recent head trauma occurred on different dates.
 
Not forgetting the bruising on Ellie's inner arm and her chin. The spine suggests a forceful twisting movement, not a hard impact. And again no defensive hand/finger wounds to break her fall, that would suggest she was rigid with her arms by her sides, not flailing out as she 'fell'.
 
Also not forgetting that Ellie's bones were microscopically examined and found to be healthy and not deficient or diseased.
 
As you are going in today Tortoise , I may as well post this up - it explains what is expected of a medical witness at a trial ( Stoodley, Risdon all testified in this report , Drs. Mack & Van E too )

never mislead by doing the following:
- never testify outside your own expertise
- do not cherry pick - even attach the papers that disagree with ur prof opinion, so the Judge can peruse them
- duty to act honestly, do not manipulate others' research, use others' research appropriately, duty to be objective & genuinely assist a lay court
- don't over-egg your standing/status/experience in the field you are testifying in

striking off of W Squiers, reasons also at the link
http://www.insidejusticeuk.com/pdf/mpts-determination-of-facts.pdf

‘Expert witnesses are in a privileged position; indeed, only experts are permitted to give an
opinion in evidence. Outside the legal field the court itself has no expertise and for that reason
frequently has to rely on the evidence of experts. Such experts must express only opinions which
they genuinely hold and which are not biased in favour of one particular party. Opinions can, of
course, differ and indeed quite frequently experts who have expressed their objective and honest
opinions will differ, but such differences are usually within a legitimate area of disagreement.
 
Ben Butler claims 'I'm not getting a fair trial man' as judge blasts his barrister for 'springing' new medical evidence on prosecutors

https://twitter.com/CourtNewsUK?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
 
cottonweaver said:
Honestly guys it is so hard to keep track of these "stories".
Baby sex- brilliant point - all I remember squish is her undated letter "Dear Jesus, dear beautiful goddess and most (illegible) God. Please make my home.. Ellie, Ben and I all happy together as a family. Please don't let Ben leave me but make him learn to like me. Stop violence and make him WANT ME and be there at the birth if I have a baby boy.' found in police search

and then the March 16th text

How would she know she had aborted a male foetus. They would not tell you in Jan when the abortion was performed and they wouldn't know during the complications/D&C or whatever in March !


Also Tortoise , your post

IDK the answer to that but it's interesting to recall that in January - on 2nd day of new school term - Social Services contacted the school because they had discovered JG had been admitted to hospital- SS got back in touch with school and said she was with her father.

SS knew her whereabouts in Jan, even if she went in during Jan for the abortion under a false name too, besides March . ( Again this is school head testimony day so I hope this is correct.)

I think they have got so used to lying. She does it as a matter of course. He now covers for his pushing JG to keep terminating pregnancies by blaming it on anything/anyone - SServices, threat of child removal.....I don't think we can trust anything he says unless it is substantiated by another witness.
Click to expand...


Again, still catching up, sorry! For some reason I seemed to think she'd had two abortions? One for the ectopic pregnancy and one for the boy later? I'm not sure what made me think that though?
 
flutterby said:
I'm catching up and have a few more pages to read so maybe somebody has already said this, but didn't Jennie claim she heard Ellie playing upstairs when she got home from work?
Click to expand...

Yes she did:

Recalling Ellie's final moments in the police interview, Gray claimed she had heard the youngster playing in her room after she got home from working as a graphic designer in the capital...

When she arrived home, Gray said she was 'very sure' she could hear Ellie 'playing in her room' with the door closed before she called her downstairs for cake - a treat she would 'normally jump at'.
She told the officer: 'We thought she was messing about because sometimes she says she can't hear us. You think she's having a joke.'
Click to expand...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...magic-spells-make-love-her.html#ixzz49D4obR52
 
Just been catching up since Tuesday, didn't make it to court on Wednesday as my train and bus timings didn't work.

Sounds like it's been a busy week a lots of BS from BB.

Part of me is wondering if BB is projecting again. He claims the pros have cherry picked their witnesses to persecute him and say the things that the pros want them to say. Is that why he's had to go to America and get 'controversial' witnesses? Because they'll say the correct thing?
 
A man accused of killing his six-year-old daughter claimed he was not getting a fair trial after an expert medical witness he called was stopped while giving evidence.
The judge in the case of Ben Butler, who has been charged with murdering his child, Ellie in 2013, intervened twice to stop the doctor “straying” into areas in which she was not expert. Mr Justice Wilkie also criticised the defence team for “improper” questioning.
Julie Mack, a professor of radiology at Penn State University in the US, told the jury at the Old Bailey she had been tasked by Butler’s legal team “to consider whether there were radiological findings supporting prior injury to the head”.
She was giving testimony following Butler’s claim that his daughter had suffered a fractured skull while she was in foster care with her grandfather or in the care of the local authority.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ctors-evidence-halted-ellie?CMP=twt_b-gdnnews
 
I went in this afternoon to listen to Dr Van Ee's evidence.

Mr & Mrs Gobby were up to their usual tricks of shouting out. He refused to come out of the cells for the first 15 minutes, and was arguing through the glass of the dock with Peart QC.

Van Ee helped the prosecution's case in my view. I've a raging headache so I'll be back to update later.
 
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-36341107

A doctor has told the trial of a man accused of his daughter's murder it is "possible but uncommon" for a child to suffer a skull fracture in a fall from a chair.
Dr Chris Van Ee told the Old Bailey he did not rule out the idea Ellie Butler was fatally injured in such a fall.
Click to expand...

ETA: Lots of interesting evidence at the link, but 10% rule..
 
More here

Under cross-examination, Dr Van Ee admitted he had not seen all the post-mortem photos and could not say whether the skull fractures indicated one or two impacts.
He accepted if there were two impacts to her head, it does not tally with Ellie falling from the stool.


Earlier, neuroradiologist Dr Julie Mack told the court scans of Ellie's head showed injuries which literature she had seen suggested could be as little as two weeks old.
[h=2]'It is unbelievable'[/h]She dismissed an earlier expert witness suggestion Ellie suffered more than one impact, saying: "I don't think it is a safe conclusion to make".
But, prosecutor Ed Brown QC stood up to complain, saying he was unaware of Dr Mack's claim, or of the literature she cited.
It prompted the judge Mr Justice Wilkie to interrupt Dr Mack and said it was improper to "spring" evidence on the prosecution.
Mr Butler then responded angrily in the dock, saying it was "unbelievable", adding: "I'm not getting a fair trial, man."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-36341107
 
Tortoise said:
Wobble over. I'm not going to court today btw.

I think there are two issues here, for me. One is this second impact syndrome, how a brain that is concussed a second time before the first has healed can be fatal. The other is Ellie's smashed skull.

I am not satisfied that any theory can explain away not just the science behind multiple brain traumas, but the impact that would have been required to break Ellie's skull. One is to do with the brain and the other is to do with the bone. If Ellie had died from brain injury only, I would entertain a bump/fall/rapid head movement, but nothing has been put forward to explain why her skull caved and shattered. A difficult birth does not cause diseased or weak bone or inability to feel pain from broken bones. Why did she have a skull weakness but her other bones didn't regularly break in falls? Yes there was a broken scapula but that is not a common break, and doesn't explain why she would not have been in pain. A child falling will put out their hands, but no broken fingers or wrists.

There are too many absurdities here for me to have to accept with his defence -

2nd concussion
Plus skull susceptible to breakage in short fall, but not other commonly broken bones
no pain
no restriction of arm movement
two black eyes in 4 months - and why specifically a black eye both times from falling into stairs? the eyes are protected by the surrounding bone but something badly bruised her actual eyelid and not her nose or her eyebrow line, except when she was wearing her glasses and they were pushed into the bridge of her nose. Why then didn't her glasses protect her surrounding eye area?
no untoward medical history for 6 years
it only happens when he is around - not at school, with her grandparents, while they are under supervision of social workers, or when he is out.

It's BS.

I'm not as concerned as you Gigi about there being no blood impact site on the walls or another hard surface. I think a very fast slam or two of a head / quite a thick skull against a hard surface would not produce an instant blood spatter. Her head is away from the hard surface in a second. I think the bleeding was mostly internal from her brain and between the membranes which are quite deep below the bone, over the ensuing seconds and minutes. Ellie was laying on the floor when the paramedics arrived, so there must have been an area on the floor that was stained from this boggy area they felt, but I don't think it's been reported in detail. How her pillow was involved I don't know.

I think Judge Wilkie was correct when he said BB's idea was to be seen outside the house and give the impression on the 999 call that he was only just coming upon it and asking JG what had happened. In his testimony he has hidden quite a lot behind the shock and not being able to remember why he said things or what he did during that 2 hours. It was more than two hours actually because he laid down on the floor before he made any phone calls.

I'm pleased they can tell from the different stages of bone healing that the scapula break and recent head trauma occurred on different dates.
Click to expand...
This post made me wonder if Ellie was pi$$ing him off while he was trying to have his nap... calling/climbing on him and hes forcefully thrown her off

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