GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #1

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I just heard about this case a few days ago and have just caught up with the thread. Thank you everyone for the excellent coverage and insightful comments, especially those of you who have actually been sitting in court.

I can't imagine what Ellie went through after being handed back to these self-obsessed, self-righteous monsters, it's just horrific :(
 
Welcome Raymonde, from us all here, following this awful and infuriating case. Please do join in, the more the better.
:welcome6:

Thanks for this link flutterby

[video=twitter;733662024924856320]https://twitter.com/DannyShawBBC/status/733662024924856320[/video]

"Dr van Ee agrees that in most cases of short falls with head injuries patients make a full recovery "
I hope Dr VEe referred to some actual stats when he was giving his opinions, rather than "most cases". Statements like that don't hep the jury and just help the Defence. ( I posted the US D.A . link this morning, and stats are certainly collected)

Equally "Dr Chris Van Ee says children can fall from 50 inches and suffer skull and head injuries. It's "uncommon" but "possible"". One in a million? ( USDA) ie. not reasonably possibly true but just a theoretical possibiliy?

"But under X-exam Dr Van Ee says he hasn't seen all post-mortem photos & can't say if fractures show one or two impacts." ( Twitter isn't hyperlinking in properly so just going to quote.)

Dumb question - why would you travel all the way from Michigan to give EXPERT testimony on a case and not look at all the fracture photos when you're giving an expert opinion on fractures? ( Sounds too convenient to me!)
 
I've already linked to this , this morning, but I may as well paste it up as, unsurprisingly, press aren't as interested in the day's testimony

On Dr Van E, why he was discounted by the Medical Practitioners Tribunal judges in the recent case of stopping one of his colleagues from ever being a trial witness, ever again.

Dr Van Ee was very knowledgeable and enthusiastic about biomechanics, his field of expertise.
He gave consistent answers with regard to his interpretation of the biomechanical literature. Having
described the extensive education and experience that qualified him as an expert in the field, the tribunal
was surprised that he appeared to believe that any competent person who read the biomechanical
literature could give expert evidence about it in court. This paradox led the tribunal to doubt the
credibility of some of his evidence.
:thinking:

http://www.insidejusticeuk.com/pdf/mpts-determination-of-facts.pdf
 
And on Dr Julie Mack

The tribunal was of the view that much of Dr Mack’s report focussed on discrediting
Dr Stoodley’s reports rather than giving an expert opinion. The tribunal considered that Dr Mack’s
evidence to it was, at times, evasive, giving long complex answers which lacked objectivity, particularly
in relation to research. Indeed, she appeared to be attempting to guess what you were thinking at the time
rather than give her own response. The tribunal was of the view that Dr Mack was not an impartial expert,
as she showed distinct partisanship towards you. As such, the tribunal did not attach much weight to her
evidence

http://www.insidejusticeuk.com/pdf/mpts-determination-of-facts.pdf

BIB The "you" in the case is Mack's fellow scientist WSquiers who was struck off for a number of reasons - one of which is that WS had been giving expert opnion in UK & US across SEVEN separate expert specialisms in cases such as SBS -
Post mortem pathology
Forensic Medicine
Ophthalmic pathology
Neuroradiology
Paediatric Medicine
Paediatric Neurosurgery
Biomechanics

The tribunal found that she should not have been giving an opinion in ANY of those above .

Now you can see why JWilkie , today stopped Dr Mack from "straying": " intervened twice to stop the doctor “straying” into areas in which she was not expert." ( Wilkie said) amongst other moves the Judge was not happy with.

I know scientists & experts are meant to have big egos - but this kind of game playing by guns for hire is really bad IMO.
There are people's lives on the line , as well as justice for victims.
JMO - We've all complained about BB misleading the court but here we have so called bona fide professionals, out there, possibly doing the same. ( WSquiers was paid for so many cases- it clearly is happening - I'm not saying it has definitely gone on today- don't sue me LOL)
 
So, Dr Van Ee, from Michigan, USA.

He produced his first report for the defence in October 2014, and a second report almost exactly a year ago in 2015, when the case was originally scheduled for trial.

He was sent a sample of Ellie's bedroom carpet and a piece of the carpet underlay. as well as some autopsy reports and an outline of the prosecution's case.

He said in May 2015 he could not tell much from the autopsy photocopies of photos and asked for better photos but the defence did not send any.

Specifically, he could not see in much detail the fracture at the side of Ellie's head, which is where the 2nd blow is said by the prosecution to have been struck, so he had to report on limited information.

He said Ellie was 48" tall, the stool in her bedroom was 10.6" high, so the distance of a fall would be 50", taking account of the size of her head. Even if she had jumped up, the distance of a fall would only be 52".

He said he could not rule out a fall causing the complex fracture seen at the back of Ellie's head. But he also said (under cross-exam) so much that seemed to weigh against it. He said there is only one case EVER of an impact to the back of the head from a fall causing fractures along the central suture as well as fractures off to the side, that of a 6 week old baby. FitzGerald QC (pros) pointed out to him that in that particular case the baby's head had fractured in almost identical fractures to both sides. He said it wasn't comparable to Ellie's V-shaped second skull fracture on one side, and Van Ee agreed it wasn't. He had to admit that even complex fractures usually take the path of least resistance, meaning they would continue on along the central suture without branching off to the side. He said it was so uncommon for a child to hit their head as the primary site of impact, something like 1 in 1 million or more, because they usually also land on their feet, knees, buttocks and shoulders to try and correct their fall. (In effect Ellie's head must have been the first part that hit the floor). He said that if there was a second impact site (he didn't have the information to say if there was) he could not support a finding of a fall.

FitzGerald then started to ask him if he knew that there was a brain contusion at the site of the second fracture and if that had been given consideration by him but he was stopped by an objection by Peart because it falls outside the scope of his expertise.

Similarly he was stopped from questioning Van Ee about the spinal bleeds.

The two defendants were as usual shouting out while the prosecution were questioning the expert, and their barristers were turning around and shushing them, as well as the security officer in the dock with them.

BB said at the beginning to Peart that he would not allow the expert to give evidence if he was going to be blocked. Peart said to him you've got a choice, you either sit there or go back to your cell.
 
This post made me wonder if Ellie was pi$$ing him off while he was trying to have his nap... calling/climbing on him and hes forcefully thrown her off

Sent from my GT-I9301I using Tapatalk

Occasionally I guess there is a grain of truth in some of his evidence. eg I found it interesting that this week, he said that he had taken them up their food at 11.30 to both girls in separate bedrooms. ( Chewits, jam sandwich, crisps, whatever)
So I wonder if the "bad feeling" towards Ellie had started earlier on in the day and she was confined to her bedroom.

But yes, her making a noise could set him off, it seems anything sets him off because... well because he wants to .
 
Welcome Raymonde, from us all here, following this awful and infuriating case. Please do join in, the more the better.
:welcome6:

Thanks for this link flutterby

[video=twitter;733662024924856320]https://twitter.com/DannyShawBBC/status/733662024924856320[/video]

"Dr van Ee agrees that in most cases of short falls with head injuries patients make a full recovery "
I hope Dr VEe referred to some actual stats when he was giving his opinions, rather than "most cases". Statements like that don't hep the jury and just help the Defence. ( I posted the US D.A . link this morning, and stats are certainly collected)

Equally "Dr Chris Van Ee says children can fall from 50 inches and suffer skull and head injuries. It's "uncommon" but "possible"". One in a million? ( USDA) ie. not reasonably possibly true but just a theoretical possibiliy?

"But under X-exam Dr Van Ee says he hasn't seen all post-mortem photos & can't say if fractures show one or two impacts." ( Twitter isn't hyperlinking in properly so just going to quote.)

Dumb question - why would you travel all the way from Michigan to give EXPERT testimony on a case and not look at all the fracture photos when you're giving an expert opinion on fractures? ( Sounds too convenient to me!)

It was a video link to the States cotton. (both experts today)
 
It was a video link to the States cotton. (both experts today)

Oh dear - i ranted for no reason!
I thought it was just Dr Janice O who was video linking from her cruise stop over! LOL

Was it a bit dull today then, or did you have a good view of the big screens?

ETA - BIB, No I didn't really - the points are just as valid. Look at all the evidence for your particular area of opinion and hopefully in cross, get some specific data on occurrences.
 
Oh dear - i ranted for no reason!
I thought it was just Dr Janice O who was video linking from her cruise stop over! LOL

Was it a bit dull today then, or did you have a good view of the big screens?

Yes, I only saw Van Ee, wasn't going to go today but after hearing about BB's unfair trial rant and not seeing much in the news I decided at lunch time I had to get my arse down there.

He was on a big screen so we all had a good view.
 
Thanks for the report Tortoise

Do you know if the floor was concrete ? Van E must have mentioned it or used it as part of his calculations.?

Anyway, I reckon the Judge will make sure he is careful on directions to jury in the case of VE's testimony and it looks as if he didn't advance the Defence's case at all.

EdIT - And TX for reporting how seldom death from a fall from 5' - even VE admitted , that's good.
 
Yes, I only saw Van Ee, wasn't going to go today but after hearing about BB's unfair trial rant and not seeing much in the news I decided at lunch time I had to get my arse down there.

He was on a big screen so we all had a good view.

What about the BB incident arguing through the glass of the dock. Bet he hated being told what to do even by his own QC. Being shushed - I bet no-one has ever shushed BB before. The case is really not going their way now with the blocking of "straying"- some frantic phone calls to Belmarsh prison this weekend? They'll have to bank on Janice O now.

You made me laugh the 2 Gobbys. Did she appear protective at all?

PS how's your Old Bailey headache? Hope it is gone.
 
Thanks for the report Tortoise

Do you know if the floor was concrete ? Van E must have mentioned it or used it as part of his calculations.?

Anyway, I reckon the Judge will make sure he is careful on directions to jury in the case of VE's testimony and it looks as if he didn't advance the Defence's case at all.

Concrete wasn't mentioned today but I've heard Peart referring to a fall onto the concrete floor before.
 
Sorry this may be massively O/T but hope you get my point.

The whole it wasnt me it was the ventouse 'damage' etc really rubs me up the wrong way. 3 out of my 4 babies were forceps births, I dont know why ellie was born via ventouse but in my case it was because my babies/my life was in grave danger.

Anyway my point is, because of these horrific full on quick get em out births, my babies are even more precious to me. Im not a ridiculously overly protective(who am I kidding?) mum but I would kill anyone who looked at my kids wrong nevermind pulverised their beautiful wee bodies.

As for the list of Ellies wrongs, thats pretty much my 7 year old... she's a kid, thats normal no?! I just dont get this pair, particularly JG. I do not trust that she wasn't fully involved, but then I think that he would probably happily throw her under the bus... hmm
 
OMG I seriously want to throw something heavy at the 2 in the dock. How on earth is the Judge letting them get away with the downright rudeness. Gosh when I served as a Juror some years back. The guy on trial shouted out at his ex friend from the dock. N he was swiftly excused below stairs. N judge recessed the Court for a break.
They are both baying like rabid dogs.
Roll on Monday... seen Mr EVIL. Now it's Mrs EVIL....

Come come my pretty..... 🕵

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
 
I'm here but not .. decorating 😩

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
 
Sorry cotton and tortoise, dunno how to multi quote yet!! That was why I was thinking that the killer blow came from the living room floor, more likely a concrete one IF he didnt hit her with something etc?! Need to see the pics of the outside if the flat again. Infact whats the address, can look for floor plans?
 
What about the BB incident arguing through the glass of the dock. Bet he hated being told what to do even by his own QC. Being shushed - I bet no-one has ever shushed BB before. The case is really not going their way now with the blocking of "straying"- some frantic phone calls to Belmarsh prison this weekend? They'll have to bank on Janice O now.

You made me laugh the 2 Gobbys. Did she appear protective at all?

PS how's your Old Bailey headache? Hope it is gone.

I'm not sure if she is protective, I think she is claiming innocence. I'll tell you what she reminds me of, a mouthy school girl, a belligerent teenager. I'd say she's stuck somewhere at a teenage stage of development. It is just anti-authority, so disrespectful, when she was told off by the security officer for making too much noise she gave her such a dirty look. The pair of them are like equals, I can imagine them going at each other like two dogs in a fight, She isn't submissive.

Yes, thanks, my headache's cleared. I think I suffer from caffeine withdrawal when I go to court.
 
I'm here but not .. decorating ��

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

O/t my hubbie is a painter/decorator, shall I send him down? Peace for me, more time to ws for you lol
 
Sorry cotton and tortoise, dunno how to multi quote yet!! That was why I was thinking that the killer blow came from the living room floor, more likely a concrete one IF he didnt hit her with something etc?! Need to see the pics of the outside if the flat again. Infact whats the address, can look for floor plans?

the address is 14 Westover Close, Sutton

looks to be like a concrete jungle type development
 
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