GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #1

[cottonweaver]

Only just saw this article. Yes, I can imagine he is going to try and use something like that.

However, being optimistic now, I can't see how this helps him really - surely it's all about the primary injury, the impact, the force that was needed to split the skull like that, only he delivered that initial devastating force so that her skull almost came away in the hands of the pathologist or wtte .

From your link:

"Second impact syndrome. Experiencing a second concussion before signs and symptoms of a first concussion have resolved may result in rapid and usually fatal brain swelling.

After a concussion, the levels of brain chemicals are altered. It usually takes about a week for these levels to stabilize again. However, recovery time is variable, and it's important for athletes never to return to sports while they're still experiencing signs and symptoms of concussion."

I get that you can receive a fatal or brain damaging injury on repeated concussions, but aren't we looking at a case where a third of her skull is , sorry to be graphic, smashed into her brain matter (not any "invisible" brain swelling or just internal bleeds which can be fatal.) I would have liked them to give a unit measure of the mechanical force needed to smash a skull - they can obviously measure it - he cannot really use the stairs as he found her upstairs and he can't say a "boggy mass" was due to a previous injury .

I will have a look again at the primary physical damage the experts found on her skull, if I can find.

 

[Tortoise]

Someone please give me a shake. cottonweaver? anyone? I'm having doubts.

I mean I cannot stand the guy, he is a violent abusive bully and he lies.

But I can't say I'm certain he did it.

 

[Tortoise]

Anyway, just an update on what's happening in court

His cross exam and re-examination ended today.

Tomorrow there are two experts testifying by video link from America - these two I believe, if I heard their names correctly;

Dr Van Ee http://wrongfulconvictionnews.com/n...w-trial-in-jeffrey-havard-death-penalty-case/ (in the morning)

Dr Mack https://www.sharecare.com/doctor/dr-julie-a-mack (in the afternoon)

And then there is a third expert who has gone on a cruise for 2 weeks. They are hoping to get a video link set up to the ship or a port - if not, court is breaking for half term week and she will probably be linked by video on the Monday 6th June. She is Dr Ophoven http://www.yorknewstimes.com/news/c...cle_7a631db0-66b4-11e2-8a43-001a4bcf887a.html

Meantime JG will start her evidence on Monday next week (23rd May)

JG's barrister is Mr Tetlow http://www.gardencourtchambers.co.uk/barrister/bernard-tetlow-qc/

 

[Tortoise]

I'll probably come back to my senses in a short while.

 

[dalsglen]

Oi tortoise give yerself a :banghead::banghead:

 

[Tortoise]

Oi tortoise give yerself a :banghead::banghead:

anic:

I'm trying. I really am. I was 100% certain. Until I read some of that defence expert stuff I posted. :gaah:

 

[Tortoise]

Nevermind, I shall just have to sit back and watch what the jury decides.

Interesting morning - sat through legal argument from 10:00 until about 11:45, while they decided which internet searches of JG's could be admitted in evidence against BB.

Judge agreed to three on the basis they contradicted some of his evidence and could be reasonably seen to relate to her relationship with BB -

1. My partner hates me and hates my baby (not verbatim - wtte) dated to October 2009 (1 month after daughter's birth)
2. My baby is ruining my relationship (ditto) dated to December 2009
3. PTSD and domestic violence dated to sometime in 2010

There were some others which the judge said could not be put to BB because they could not be determined to refer to BB

1. I'm addicted to a man who doesn't love me - dated to December 2005 (3 months before she met BB)
2. Broken nose - dated to 2008
3. Stabbed leg while pregnant - dated to July 2009 (they determined he was in prison from sometime in March to end June 2009)

As expected BB wasn't able to shed any light on why she would have made those searches. He thinks the PTSD domestic violence one was linked to their family court hearing but he didn't know the details, said you'll have to ask JG.

 

[Tortoise]

Revealed today in court that social workers stopped visiting them in March 2013.

 

[cottonweaver]

Someone please give me a shake. cottonweaver? anyone? I'm having doubts.

I mean I cannot stand the guy, he is a violent abusive bully and he lies.

But I can't say I'm certain he did it.

Oh my. I'm laughing because finally we have a twist in this sorry saga. ( As you've picked up I am both dogged as well as easily bored!)


Seriously though, I have not read your defence experts yet but you're giving the Defence's case a fair crack of the whip and there is nothing wrong with that , that's what we would all do if we were jurors howvere much he repulsed us on a personal level.

 

[cottonweaver]

Squish got the broken nose, Well spotted Squish - pity it can't be used in evidence.

I can't find this stuff that Tortoise has posted which is giving her second thoughts.

ETA - Hold on, they may put it to JG if/when she goes into the doc.

Gosh - the youngest is "ruining my relationship", I expected that to mean Ellie. ( Although probably similar thoughts/searches were made about E when she was born. )

 

[Tortoise]

Squish got the broken nose, Well spotted Squish - pity it can't be used in evidence.

I can't find this stuff that Tortoise has posted which is giving her second thoughts.

ETA - Hold on, they may put it to JG if/when she goes into the doc.

Gosh - the youngest is "ruining my relationship", I expected that to mean Ellie. ( Although probably similar thoughts/searches were made about E when she was born. )

Sorry cw, I probably didn't post links to everything I read on those experts. I googled them and read quite a few court cases where they were called for the defence, but may not have posted all the relevant links so as not to overload my post.

 

[Tortoise]

Squish got the broken nose, Well spotted Squish - pity it can't be used in evidence.

I can't find this stuff that Tortoise has posted which is giving her second thoughts.

ETA - Hold on, they may put it to JG if/when she goes into the doc.

Gosh - the youngest is "ruining my relationship", I expected that to mean Ellie. ( Although probably similar thoughts/searches were made about E when she was born. )

Yes she's definitely going to take the stand on Monday next week.

 

[cottonweaver]

Sorry cw, I probably didn't post links to everything I read on those experts. I googled them and read quite a few court cases where they were called for the defence, but may not have posted all the relevant links so as not to overload my post.

Ah ok, i was going through the thread trying to find your "game changers". Anyway, I read the SBS stuff in April and all the drama between professionals and the new developments and I agree it seems highly complex and vindictive sometimes. Clearly, back in the day, ( Louise Woodward , Professor Meadows etc ) they were too simplistic and you can have other causes BUT let's not forget the burns injury 1 and that most new parents may not have a clue that a mild degree of shaking on a tiny baby can create SBS.


But this is 2013 ( Ellie crime) and it isn't SBS now. So let's leave 2007 conviction to one side for a moment.

2013 You can't sustain that kind of multiple impact injury jumping off a bed, falling off a chair, I doubt you could even get it from a kids trampoline.
I looked at 6 year old skulls ( the easier reads, as some are way too long and complicated. ) the short answer is

from one site -comparing strength of adult vs child - a 6yr olds skull is 75% as strong as an adults.
from another site- to get the tree branch fractures either you or flutterby described a while ago, you need a lot of force or a fall from a significant height and then you would need an angled fall plus some kind of ricochet to account for more than one impact site, as per the paths found.
http://adc.bmj.com/content/early/2015/08/21/archdischild-2014-307119.full
BTW That link notes you can get fractures in tiny babies, if dropped from a short height, eg a carer's arms.

This without taking into account the grab/grapple/abrasions on her body found by the paths.

Re SBS & 2007 - It's clear from that Wayne Squiers link I posted that dodgy expert evidence also, in the past, got guilty people OFF a charge, as well as some innocent people convicted.

It's interesting that Scheimberg is not giving evidence for the Pros - I thought she was at autopsy or similar. Must have got that wrong.

 

[cottonweaver]

Tomorrow there are two experts testifying by video link from America - these two I believe, if I heard their names correctly;

Dr Van Ee http://wrongfulconvictionnews.com/n...w-trial-in-jeffrey-havard-death-penalty-case/ (in the morning)

Dr Mack https://www.sharecare.com/doctor/dr-julie-a-mack (in the afternoon)

And then there is a third expert who has gone on a cruise for 2 weeks. They are hoping to get a video link set up to the ship or a port - if not, court is breaking for half term week and she will probably be linked by video on the Monday 6th June. She is Dr Ophoven http://www.yorknewstimes.com/news/c...cle_7a631db0-66b4-11e2-8a43-001a4bcf887a.html

snipped
Of those 3, so far it seems at least 1 is an expert in SBS - Dr. Ophoven. I wonder if she has been drafted in to testify as to 2007 crime not 2013 crime, as BB has spent most of his time wanting to focus on that and not on 2013 injuries. PS from your link : Dr O makes $180k a year from testifying Defence cases.

http://wrongfulconvictionnews.com/n...w-trial-in-jeffrey-havard-death-penalty-case/
Yes that conviction looks flaky , just from reading that account linked.

I do think it is interesting that BB has to go all the way to the US for his experts.
Can the witch-hunt pressure on UK paths really be that severe? Or OTOH is it just cause he wouldn't be able to find a UK expert to say what he wants? ( I don't believe for a second that he has gone outside of UK as all UK experts are in the big "Conspiracy", as we know we have a number of SBS "dissenters" working in Uk hosps right now.

All will be revealed in good time- let's just hope we can understand some of the jargon! LOL

PS ID think he would have expected Judge Wilkie to say all that at the end.

 

[cottonweaver]

This is one of the best on SBS, which is BB's favourite subject.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/grap...-diagnosis-dismiss-scientific-challenges.html

PS Dr Van Ee who will give evidence shortly, also worked closely with Dr. Waney Squier who was struck off last month as per linked on previous page and he supports her . ( WS is no longer allowed to be a professional witness in trial due to the criticisms as per the previous link. ) It'll be interesting to see his explanation for the bone and skull fractures though.


Dr Ee endorses the protest here https://protectinginnocentfamilies....innocent-families-stand-with-dr-waney-squier/

ETA Firgit to add - The 2nd expert to come, Dr Mack , got some serious criticism from the same professional body that struck off Squier although I have not gone to look at the original judgement by the Medical Practitioners Tribunal Service. It's referred to here though, a complaint letter:
http://www.insidejusticeuk.com/pdf/open-letter-to-national-chair-mpts.pdf

 

[Tortoise]

Wilkie also asked him about the 10-part list JG had written about Ellie.

BB maintains he never knew of the existence of that list until the trial preparations were underway. Wilkie pointed out to him that the last item on the list says "we feel she is aware she is doing this". He said it looks as if the "we" suggests they had discussed it together. BB denied it. He said if he knew about the list that would have been the last straw for him and JG, as he was so angry about the way she was with Ellie and said it was typical of the way she was.

 

[cottonweaver]

Wilkie also asked him about the 10-part list JG had written about Ellie.

BB maintains he never knew of the existence of that list until the trial preparations were underway. Wilkie pointed out to him that the last item on the list says "we feel she is aware she is doing this". He said it looks as if the "we" suggests they had discussed it together. BB denied it. He said if he knew about the list that would have been the last straw for him and JG, as he was so angry about the way she was with Ellie and said it was typical of the way she was.

Last straw my *advertiser censored***. How many last straws have they had in the last 11 months, over much bigger issues. He may not have known she had written the list ( as she certainly had a private side to her/praying/spells/diaries) but the list sure gave the impression that they chatted about the topics on it , rather like this text about taking a joint approach.

I want u to start being a lot tougher... Shes being an abs c***... I want to knw y she pissed herself in front of dad and sat there sulking the whole *advertiser censored**ing time,’ Butler said in one message.
Gray replied: ‘I think is terrible so I am going to get tough. U need to be more serious with her too.’

Judge is presumably helping the jury there? Foreperson gets out their pad?

 

[cottonweaver]

PS Tortoise , your link on Dr. Janice Ophoven is pretty damning. The lead prosecutor crossing her , 2nd half of the article, really undermines her general approach.

http://www.yorknewstimes.com/news/c...cle_7a631db0-66b4-11e2-8a43-001a4bcf887a.html


here's a short video of her in action in a US trial
[video=vimeo;9558605]https://vimeo.com/9558605[/video]

 

[Gigi-G]

I really think that due to the legal aid system. And the way our Judicial system works. Being totally different from USA. That outside the UK specialists should not be available to act. Especially as legal aid is paid by the Government Benefit system.
Sorry. Just the way I sit on these matters. There are plenty of specialist's who disprove of the SBS technology. And vehemently state it is an overused theory.

He is (BB) determined to get off this case and it either goes as a miss trial. Or prosecution pull something really damning out of the bag.

Did Peppa Pig finally kill Ellie?

Personally I don't think so. I don't think the stairs and Ellie tripping on them were the start of kill shot. They'd have to be concrete stairs. To gauge that kind of blow.
Her brain matter was spewing out of the crushed rear cavity.
Sorry for the gruesome mental picture. But usually kill blows are by the temporal lobe. Where the skull is at its thinnest. 1 punch in the right area around the temples can and does kill.
To cave the skull in at the back will of had to of been a rapid FAST acceleration or deceleration. So either she FELL onto something with the consistency of a brick in her room. At speed. Or height. You wouldn't get the skull cave in. In that way.

It has to be rapid/fast/hard.

And that my friends is not SBS. But as far as I was aware he wasn't arrested for SBS. He was arrested for 'murder' and child cruelty.
So I really don't know why he's got anti SBS proffs in. We know it wasn't SBS...

LOSING THE WILL TO LIVE HERE....

These two people should never of made children
And I do hope. They never get the chance to again. They are both Narcissistic Egotistical Bigots. And I really hope that they both get a spell inside.


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[Gigi-G]

I really think that due to the legal aid system. And the way our Judicial system works. Being totally different from USA. That outside the UK specialists should not be available to act. Especially as legal aid is paid by the Government Benefit system.
Sorry. Just the way I sit on these matters. There are plenty of specialist's who disprove of the SBS technology. And vehemently state it is an overused theory.

He is (BB) determined to get off this case and it either goes as a miss trial. Or prosecution pull something really damning out of the bag.

Did Peppa Pig finally kill Ellie?

Personally I don't think so. I don't think the stairs and Ellie tripping on them were the start of kill shot. They'd have to be concrete stairs. To gauge that kind of blow.
Her brain matter was spewing out of the crushed rear cavity.
Sorry for the gruesome mental picture. But usually kill blows are by the temporal lobe. Where the skull is at its thinnest. 1 punch in the right area around the temples can and does kill.
To cave the skull in at the back will of had to of been a rapid FAST acceleration or deceleration. So either she FELL onto something with the consistency of a brick in her room. At speed. Or height. You wouldn't get the skull cave in. In that way.

It has to be rapid/fast/hard.

And that my friends is not SBS. But as far as I was aware he wasn't arrested for SBS. He was arrested for 'murder' and child cruelty.
So I really don't know why he's got anti SBS proffs in. We know it wasn't SBS...

LOSING THE WILL TO LIVE HERE....

These two people should never of made children
And I do hope. They never get the chance to again. They are both Narcissistic Egotistical Bigots. And I really hope that they both get a spell inside.


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You know...I was toying with the idea. We know her room was staged. (In whatever shape or form)
Now then why would JG got a lot of blood over her? Which I'm sure if someone could check the credibility of the dna if there was any taken on something JG had been wearing around that time. That she took off.
What if Ellie had been moved. The so called incident didn't happen in her room. But somewhere else. There was enough blood residue around both hers and Ellie's both very recent.
Becuz idk this whole scenario seems off to me.
There's no blood splatter in Ellie's room.
And yet BB tripped up on the bloodied cushion in the living room n said "oh that was the other day when Ellie fell and hurt herself chasing the puppy. She was concussed and vomited blood"
To be fair. I'd give him the benefit of the doubt. But who leaves a dirty bloodied. Vomited on cushion. In situ? You'd NOT leave it there for 24+ hours. Especially with another youngster and puppy in the house... meh

As I said just a thought. As things do not tie up.

Jmoo

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