GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #2

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It makes no sense Gigi. Did you know that he has no relationship with either his father or his step-father? Hasn't seen them since he was late teens/20ish. And I don't know where they live now but when he was growing up it was in Cambridgeshire.

BB didn't admit he was there at first. He tried to pretend on the emergency call that he'd just come in. I think he was originally going to ask Ian to come over, and when that failed he asked JG to come home.

And maybe same with his younger brother.
Feel for them all, how disgraceful to know your relative did this, ( and the rest) and is now milking it and making a spectacle of themselves. Almost make you want to change your surname by deed poll.
Ooo maybe BB already did that ?!:thinking:

ETA : Your Ian theory makes total sense. Hence BB had to say they talked bank accounts instead.
 
She and BB are very similar in that respect.

He was cracking jokes and she tries to belittle the prosecutor. She called him a vile, vile man today, several times. They're both under the delusion that the jury are loving them for it, are on their side. They've rehearsed this line that goes something like 'this trial is another miscarriage of justice, this wasn't murder, and YOU KNOW IT!' She thinks she's on Britain's Got Talent I reckon, the way she gets up close to the mic, and enjoys the attention.
She called the Prosecutor a vile vile man?
OMFG is there no respect from those 2.
When I was in Court given witness evidence. I was as white as a sheet n as scared as a mouse.... I'd of been mortified being on trial.
They really do take liberties!

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No i didn't know that at all. The Cornwall scenario makes even less sense now then.

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I'll do a post to outline what her version was in her police interview and what it is now. I'm half here and half attending to dinner, so it'll take a little while.

Enjoy your dinner!!!

Thanks so much for attending and relaying info to us! I know it takes it's toll and is mentally and physically taxing on you.

I'm make you some homemade cookies and send them to you if I lived in the same country... lol
 
What do posters feel about her testimony ( version 2) on finding Ellie's body.

Fear came across strongly and almost tinged with revulsion. Just seemed strange, no elements of heartbroken "my poor baby girl" wtte or visceral loss, shock yes, comments about the "strange smell".

Graphic stuff now - in case anyone reading this is feeling upset-

“I saw Ellie on the floor and she was just laying there and I got closer to her and Iooked and her eyes were, her pupils were big, I’ve never seen that in my life. Her eyes looked like they were going up. "She was just so still and I could not think, my whole body froze. I got down near her. I tried to breathe air in her mouth. I heard a noise in her stomach and I saw her tummy come up and then this smell - a terrible smell."

I know people react differently but I would not have imagined her to be a squeamish person from what she has said/acted in the past around hospitals, ops, tests etc.
 
snipped
BIB That's what I was thinking, as the rules of spousal privilege won't help them here AFAIK. This is to secure her loyalty.
As said in thread 1 re the 2007 + fight - she actually gains from these struggles - he now needs her yet he cannot physically hurt her, nor can he leave, the tables turn IMO.
BUT it could simply be as Gigi said - she bought it herself to make herself feel better. The "arrested development" side of her - maybe she even knows it will be seen in the papers as in gossip mags IDK

She has said previously that she is supporting him due to his innocence not her partiality and he has attempted to down play the relationship for similar motives.


BBM

Delusional. Isn't it amazing how people can explain away/excuse anything and turn things around to their advantage or what they want to believe or how they wish things were? She would drive me nuts.
 
It makes no sense Gigi. Did you know that he has no relationship with either his father or his step-father? Hasn't seen them since he was late teens/20ish. And I don't know where they live now but when he was growing up it was in Cambridgeshire.

BB didn't admit he was there at first. He tried to pretend on the emergency call that he'd just come in. I think he was originally going to ask Ian to come over, and when that failed he asked JG to come home.

If he has t seen either dad or stepdad since his teens then who is he referring to when in a text to JGhe is demanding to
Know why ELlie "pissed her self in front of dad and spent the whole afternoon ****ing sulking"?
 
Her new version.

1. Received text from BB saying 'answer'. Phoned him and he said 'come home NOW'. She asked why, he said 'I'll tell you when you get here' and hung up the phone.
2. Disputes that she called him back again almost immediately for 1min20secs, even though the phone records show she did. Says the police evidence is shifty and they have to prove it's not an error.
3. Left work instantly, despite not knowing of any urgent need why she should leave at once.
4. Found a cab to take her, disputes she told the driver her child was really ill. Says 'you don't tell the cab driver why you want a cab'. 'He made that up after hearing of Ellie's death on the news'.
5. Remembers speaking to BB again on the journey, when he asked 'are you nearly home yet'. Still didn't ask him why she had to go home, even though the call was 20 seconds. Disputes and/or doesn't remember any other calls with him in the cab.
6. Went in the house, and went straight to the bathroom to clean herself up, same 'bleeding' excuse as before.
7. Admits she made up the part about hearing Ellie in her room (2007 excuse).
8. Went downstairs. Didn't go anywhere near the kitchen or do anything with cake. Doesn't know why she would have mentioned cake to the police/ambulance crew, she was in shock when she said that, she can't remember it. She hadn't discussed cake with BB. 'That's his evidence, not mine, you'll have to ask him about the cake'. Realising it just doesn't make any sense, she adds that she 'may have seen cake on the kitchen table' after all. That's the 'best she can do to help the prosecutor understand, but he never will, this jury will understand he is being vile, time stood still, you don't remember things when you've experienced shock like she has, lost a child. Has the prosecutor ever lost a child in these circumstances and suffered shock?
9. Saw BB lying on the living room floor. Knew instantly that this was serious. He said 'I think Ellie's dead'.
10. Doesn't know why she didn't ask him 'have you called an ambulance', or suggest 'we need to call an ambulance' - 'that isn't the first thing that goes through your head when you're in that situation'. She had to get to Ellie to see for herself.
11. She went up and saw Ellie on the floor. Tried CPR.
12. Knew she was gone, her eyes were rolled back. BB beckoned her out of the room, softly said 'come here'.
13. Closed Ellie's door and BB had told YD to go play dress up in her room. Knew she wouldn't come out and go into Ellie's room.
14. No point in calling an ambulance because Ellie was gone, she knew it.
15. In shock she went downstairs again and changed her top, 'to make it look like she hadn't been at work, because they would blame BB, they knew they would after 2007, and look it's happened hasn't it. Just like they predicted. She was right to think she needed to lie to defend an innocent man'. Accepts the cctv shows she was wearing the blue 'cornflower' shirt that day. Didn't leave the pink and white shirt on the bed to make it look as if she had been wearing that one. She probably changed her mind about which shirt to wear when she was getting dressed in the morning. She dropped her cornflower blue shirt on the floor. Doesn't know why it's not in the police photos of her bedroom floor. But there are some areas of the floor not shown in the photo. It wasn't put in the washing machine.
16. BB took the dog out, and her bloodied towel and the rubbish. He needed to get some air.
17. In shock, 'she wasn't thinking or trying to set up a cover story, her body was reacting' she texted her boss to tell her she had gone home feeling unwell. This was at 2:10pm. Doesn't know what happened for the next half hour. Can't remember...shock...
18. Heard YD going into Ellie's room, even though they knew she wouldn't go in there, and then they suddenly knew they had to call the ambulance.

BBM

There are so many holes and just plain ridiculousness in this it's almost comical.

2. So not only the police and doctors and hospital lying and conspiring against them, the phone company is as well. Scary stuff.

3. New job. Is she so sought after and indispensable that only two weeks into a new job she feels comfortable enough to leave just because? Must be nice. How often does she just whimsically decide to take the rest of the day off?

4. Uh oh.. not only the police, doctor's and hospitals are after she and BB, but cab drivers are too... This is Big. A conspiracy like this, involving this many people... I just don't know what to think.

8. Shock doesn't make you forget what happened. I know this. Time doesn't stand still.... It goes by too fast. I have experienced a major catastrophe, and I remember every detail. I wish I didn't. I probably experienced shock too, but the experience itself.... it's very real and still there in my head. In color. Not a detail is lost. I wish I could lose it. I dream about it.

10. FIRST THING I WOULD SAY OR DO IS GET HELP. NO MATTER WHAT. That would be the first thing I would think of, not the last. And FAST.

12. I would never accept or believe that my daughter was gone. I would be doing everything to bring her back.

13. Closed Ellie's door? No. You wouldn't close the door to the room your child was in. Never. I'd be in that room laying right there with her and holding her. Even if I knew she was dead I would be holding my child.

14. I would call an ambulance no matter what. I wouldn't be able to give up hope. I live out in the country, about 25 min from town. I'd be putting her in my car and speeding to the hospital.... after I called ambulance...meet them on the way. 25-30 min to my house and the same back....I'd be trying to cut the time. NO WAY I'd give up and quit trying. This woman is a monster. Bigger monster than BB in my opinion.

15. This is actually humorous... IN SHOCK SHE WENT TO CHANGE HER TOP. First... you don't remember anything when you are actually in shock... I didn't. You blank out. You have decided to not think about this and you don't. You certainly aren't able to be calculating enough to reason out that previous trouble might impact current situation and plan accordingly. This was extremely calculating and evil. I hate this woman. Please don't let her get away with this. She is seriously lacking in anything remotely resembling human empathy.

I have no doubt that she would be like Jodi Arias, blaming her victim and accusing victim of unspeakable things, if Ellie wasn't so young. If poor Ellie had been of teenage age, I think she might of done that. She has totally chosen a man, (an abusive lazy man) over her own children. And feels no grief or remorse.

Maybe I'm being sexist, I don't know. I just think a mother doing this to her child is the worst thing ever. I think that BB is the worst of the worst too... but to me, she is worse than he is. She carried this baby in her womb, gave birth. And then allowed a monster to abuse Ellie for months without putting a stop to it. Without getting help. I'm at a loss here. And sad.

JMO of course, as always..
 
What do posters feel about her testimony ( version 2) on finding Ellie's body.

Fear came across strongly and almost tinged with revulsion. Just seemed strange, no elements of heartbroken "my poor baby girl" wtte or visceral loss, shock yes, comments about the "strange smell".

Graphic stuff now - in case anyone reading this is feeling upset-



I know people react differently but I would not have imagined her to be a squeamish person from what she has said/acted in the past around hospitals, ops, tests etc.
On finding my rottweiler passed away I was grief stricken.
I just cannot comprehend the woman's callousness.

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If he has t seen either dad or stepdad since his teens then who is he referring to when in a text to JGhe is demanding to
Know why ELlie "pissed her self in front of dad and spent the whole afternoon ****ing sulking"?
**uhoh confused**

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BBM

There are so many holes and just plain ridiculousness in this it's almost comical.

2. So not only the police and doctors and hospital lying and conspiring against them, the phone company is as well. Scary stuff.

3. New job. Is she so sought after and indispensable that only two weeks into a new job she feels comfortable enough to leave just because? Must be nice. How often does she just whimsically decide to take the rest of the day off?

4. Uh oh.. not only the police, doctor's and hospitals are after she and BB, but cab drivers are too... This is Big. A conspiracy like this, involving this many people... I just don't know what to think.

8. Shock doesn't make you forget what happened. I know this. Time doesn't stand still.... It goes by too fast. I have experienced a major catastrophe, and I remember every detail. I wish I didn't. I probably experienced shock too, but the experience itself.... it's very real and still there in my head. In color. Not a detail is lost. I wish I could lose it. I dream about it.

10. FIRST THING I WOULD SAY OR DO IS GET HELP. NO MATTER WHAT. That would be the first thing I would think of, not the last. And FAST.

12. I would never accept or believe that my daughter was gone. I would be doing everything to bring her back.

13. Closed Ellie's door? No. You wouldn't close the door to the room your child was in. Never. I'd be in that room laying right there with her and holding her. Even if I knew she was dead I would be holding my child.

14. I would call an ambulance no matter what. I wouldn't be able to give up hope. I live out in the country, about 25 min from town. I'd be putting her in my car and speeding to the hospital.... after I called ambulance...meet them on the way. 25-30 min to my house and the same back....I'd be trying to cut the time. NO WAY I'd give up and quit trying. This woman is a monster. Bigger monster than BB in my opinion.

15. This is actually humorous... IN SHOCK SHE WENT TO CHANGE HER TOP. First... you don't remember anything when you are actually in shock... I didn't. You blank out. You have decided to not think about this and you don't. You certainly aren't able to be calculating enough to reason out that previous trouble might impact current situation and plan accordingly. This was extremely calculating and evil. I hate this woman. Please don't let her get away with this. She is seriously lacking in anything remotely resembling human empathy.

I have no doubt that she would be like Jodi Arias, blaming her victim and accusing victim of unspeakable things, if Ellie wasn't so young. If poor Ellie had been of teenage age, I think she might of done that. She has totally chosen a man, (an abusive lazy man) over her own children. And feels no grief or remorse.

Maybe I'm being sexist, I don't know. I just think a mother doing this to her child is the worst thing ever. I think that BB is the worst of the worst too... but to me, she is worse than he is. She carried this baby in her womb, gave birth. And then allowed a monster to abuse Ellie for months without putting a stop to it. Without getting help. I'm at a loss here. And sad.

JMO of course, as always..
Indeed!!

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snipped as it's just above

Thanks for all this Tortoise , once again. It's great, as it really fills in the gaps of those news reports.

She/They are very cunning with the new version.

Does the jury know there are changes/discrepancies in the different versions? I hope they know that statements have changed!
 
If he has t seen either dad or stepdad since his teens then who is he referring to when in a text to JGhe is demanding to
Know why ELlie "pissed her self in front of dad and spent the whole afternoon ****ing sulking"?

Well spotted - We all just assumed that it was her Dad, as we presumed E would have had to have some kind of contact arrangements with the grandparents. ( Later it was reported that those gps did meet up with them at McDonalds on 27thOct.)
We know they both lie, so yes he could be lying that he has no contact with his Dad/step, part of his poor me story? IDK
 
Does the jury know there are changes/discrepancies in the different versions? I hope they know that statements have changed!

Yes they definitely do Renee and the judge will doubtless emphasise this when he gives his summing up.
Anyway, jury wouldn't be able to forget it - as they heard that awful 999 tape plus an early police video interview which all involve some dramatic lies. Since then she has admitted she has lied and thus pleaded guilty to perverting the c of j.

"perverting..." doesn't get a long sentence over here in the UK ( mind you, nothing does) but hers is an aggravated form - especially now as we have been told yesterday that she spent 1.5 yrs lying/"perverting".

I'll find the old post with the sentencing range from thread 1.
 
On finding my rottweiler passed away I was grief stricken.
I just cannot comprehend the woman's callousness.

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I agree Gigi. They didn't make the version very plausible as they left out the normal instinctual reaction.
They couldn't write the plausible version with emotion/grief/empathy ...presumably as they don't know what it is. ( Whether that's because they both suffer from complex personality disorders or they 're both just bad IDK - mix of the two.) Obviously I accept they were both shocked and fearful...... for the consequences.

I am very squeamish - I don't even watch hospital dramas etc so I have tried to look at it(her fear at seeing the body) from both sides - but death of your child is something else?
Anyway, the fact that she could do multiple rounds on CPR etc on her dead child shows she is no delicate flower.

Again apologies to those posters we know that have lost children , when discussing the more graphic aspects coming up...

When our old dog died overnight at home and we were waiting for the vet the next day ( 5 stone dog - sadly, couldn't bury in back garden) I do remember a strong smell as morning went on - but I don't think this is what she means when she describes "a smell" - any thoughts ?
 
Indeed!!

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Agreed. You must also remember her own diaries that are n front of her in black and white are also wrong according to her and she wrote it! Thank goodness for the diaries and texts because without them the jury would have no corroborating evidence as to what was really going on in that house.
 
:laughing:

" From Renee: 4. Uh oh.. not only the police, doctor's and hospitals are after she and BB, but cab drivers are too... This is Big. A conspiracy like this, involving this many people... I just don't know what to think.

:scared:
 
BIB Agree totally and said similar in thread 1. She had ample time since Oct 2013 to say I have realised since I have been out of his control that maybe BB has harmed my daughter. Even for medical neglect/cruelty charge ( shoulder etc) she had a range of plausible options she could have worked for herself IF she had been willing to throw him under the bus.

But there's the rub. She is "sick" ( twisted ) and mentally ill so it wasn't ever going to happen - her abandoning him IMO.

I am fascinated that you think he might walk away from this and I know you mean it as you have mentioned it before. Him visiting her in jail?! It's great to have a range of viewpoints so what makes you think that? ( Maybe I am too partial having posted on here for a while?)

I think she will get a custodial sentence for perverting . If she had given evidence differently and really come clean then she may have got a suspended sentence but after that performance I really think she will be sent to prison which is why I commented that if he walks I bet he doesn't faithfully visit her like she has been doing to him all week.

For those who where there yesterday did BB s counsel put any ques to her ?
 
If he has t seen either dad or stepdad since his teens then who is he referring to when in a text to JGhe is demanding to
Know why ELlie "pissed her self in front of dad and spent the whole afternoon ****ing sulking"?

very good point. I think his mother and step-dad divorced when he was about 20, and I'm sure I remember him saying he doesn't ever see him, but maybe I've got that wrong then. Wonder if he meant her father in the text? If he did, that might have annoyed him even more, for grandparents to see that. I don't really know.
 
I didn't think the text refer to her dad as I would have thought he would have said "your dad". Only reason I say that is because he didn't get on with her dad and would not have thought he would have been calling him dad and also wouldn't have thought he would really care if she sulked in front of JG dad as he would probably be pleased about that as t would show she didn't miss grandad and didn't want to be around him. JMO
 

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