GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #2

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
Her new version.

snipped as it's just above

Thanks for all this Tortoise , once again. It's great, as it really fills in the gaps of those news reports.

She/They are very cunning with the new version.
 
Flutterby picked up a point last week (IIRC) about her choosing to travel home by cab and queried the same here.
Now we all assumed , based on news reports that as Sutton TStation was out of action in the morning ( trees on line) that it made sense for her to get that taxi and blow £50 - a lot of cash and not necessarliy faster.
Anyway it's now been reported that the Pros cross-x ing her also has asked this question - why get a taxi? ( clearly Sutton was back in operation.)
I am wondering if this was a plan to avoid witnesses or CCTV or something. There is some rationale there, something to cover.

I do think sthg happened that morning but IDThink E was killed before JG left for work - it doesn't fit with the rest of the testimony IMO.

PS Flutterby hope your viva voce went well today at Univ.
We've said as much together in DM. And I still think that's entirely feasible.
But whether it will come out... is anyone's guess. Depends if Coroner can give good indication of T O D. That's about all unless the story changes. ..

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
 
Another thing with BPD and fear of abandonment. She may be prepared to go along with all this just to keep him tied to her even being totally aware he's going down for something (and possibly even hoping he does).

For someone with BPD that would be a dream scenario. The person you're obsessed with rejected by everybody, hated by the world, broken and alone in prison with no chance of finding a new partner, no escape, all alone, no visitors, no letters - except for the BPD sufferer who can finally have them all to themselves and be their sole focus and as important to them as they have been to the BP.

Irony is, if situations like that happen and the BP gets the person they want, they lose interest really quickly and it tends to turn to hatred pretty rapidly too.

But it could well explain why she is so desperate to stick to his story even though to do so would seem to be catastrophic in terms of her own defence.
 
They said they can tell from the blood drops it was either expirated blood from her airways, or drips from something being carried with her blood on it. Menstrual blood is a different composition to blood, so I'm sure they would have been able to tell if it was.
Thanks again Tortoise :)

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
 
I missed the first hour this morning. When I got there prosecution stood up to start cross-exam, so I missed that little drama. But I got an update from another court watcher. Was told she cried crocodile tears, and within a minute was continuing as if nothing had happened Switches it on and off at will. She is acting. He was acting. There has been no genuine grief or emotion from either of them. zero.

That's strange to me. I bet you just the fear of what may happen to me (or him, if that is her main concern) would enable me to really cry and never stop. I wouldn't be sitting there and have to pretend to cry.
 
Oh yeah I know what I wanted to add when I read today's news reports :

Nowhere in any of the two versions does she ask him ( after he says "I think E is dead" ) what happened.
It's like the OP case all over again - the versions are implausible in the basics yet clever in the details.
They have been so "coloured" by what they want to omit in version-building that they have omitted the most plausible reactions when you find your child has died in the presence of your spouse/OH etc.
Put yourself in her shoes, on her version, what would you say to your OH when you saw your child lying lifeless - heck even your pet cat etc !
 
Flutterby picked up a point last week (IIRC) about her choosing to travel home by cab and queried the same here.
Now we all assumed , based on news reports that as Sutton TStation was out of action in the morning ( trees on line) that it made sense for her to get that taxi and blow £50 - a lot of cash and not necessarliy faster.
Anyway it's now been reported that the Pros cross-x ing her also has asked this question - why get a taxi? ( clearly Sutton was back in operation.)
I am wondering if this was a plan to avoid witnesses or CCTV or something. There is some rationale there, something to cover.

I do think sthg happened that morning but IDThink E was killed before JG left for work - it doesn't fit with the rest of the testimony IMO.

PS Flutterby hope your viva voce went well today at Univ.

It's just that strange story she gave that morning about the godfather that bugs me more than anything else. Unless she'd said she had to stay off on the Friday because Ellie wasn't well, and she'd found someone else that Monday morning to look after Ellie, but why even claim Ellie was still unwell on the Monday if so? It seems she was already setting up an alibi for BB not being there that morning.
 
I'm also new to the forum and have been reading this forum this thread with great interest. Lots of great reporting and information on here, so thanks very much to those who have contributed, particularly to those who have reported from court.

It's a horribly fascinating case, with an extra angle of interest for me because I'm fairly certain JG is a girl I was friendly with when we were both teenagers, so about 19 years ago. She's changed a lot physically but I'm fairly sure it's her. But I think it's probably best not to say more about that until after the verdict.

Re, her mental state. People have mentioned BPD before in this thread and I really think that is very, very likely. It involves very rapid intense feelings in relationships, tipping into obsession, but also a huge fear of real or imagined abandonment and frantic attempts to prevent the abandonment happening.

So falling in love very quickly and deeply with BB, becoming obsessed with him. But also getting pregnant very quickly, constant pregnancies to try and keep him, casting spells, saying prayers, covering up violence, covering up violence towards the children, wanting E back just to cement a family, prioritising the children above him, lying about having suspected cancer, made up illnesses, thinking a baby boy was needed - all these things indicate BPD. Plus the alcohol abuse, manipulation, impulsive behaviour, constant lying and detachment from reality.

IIRC though, as a personality disorder rather than a mental illness it's no defence. Only possibly a mitigation in sentencing. Because they don't actually prevent you knowing right from wrong, they just make you, sort of, not care.

I wouldn't be surprised for that diagnosis to be wheeled out if there is a guilty verdict. Anyway, suffice to say I am glad that it went poorly for her to say.

If she does go down I will recount some of my experiences with her. Does anybody know when the verdict is expected.

BIB Blimey !!!
UL That was me - cobbled together from the DSM!! LOL
 
She's utterly crazy. Who would sit in court correcting the prosecutor every time he mentions blue shirt, to say it's cornflower actually, her voice booming around the courtroom as she virtually eats the court microphone. I mean FFS. Does she think the beautiful goddess of flowers will smile down on her or something?
 
Oh yeah I know what I wanted to add when I read today's news reports :

Nowhere in any of the two versions does she ask him ( after he says "I think E is dead" ) what happened.
It's like the OP case all over again - the versions are implausible in the basics yet clever in the details.
They have been so "coloured" by what they want to omit in version-building that they have omitted the most plausible reactions when you find your child has died in the presence of your spouse/OH etc.
Put yourself in her shoes, on her version, what would you say to your OH when you saw your child lying lifeless - heck even your pet cat etc !

Yep, that is the most obvious first question, but it hasn't even occurred to them.

BB doesn't ask sister who was apparently in the room with Ellie when it happened,
sister apparently carries on watching telly and doesn't bat an eyelid,
and JD doesn't ask BB.
 
Another thing with BPD and fear of abandonment. She may be prepared to go along with all this just to keep him tied to her even being totally aware he's going down for something (and possibly even hoping he does).

For someone with BPD that would be a dream scenario. The person you're obsessed with rejected by everybody, hated by the world, broken and alone in prison with no chance of finding a new partner, no escape, all alone, no visitors, no letters - except for the BPD sufferer who can finally have them all to themselves and be their sole focus and as important to them as they have been to the BP.

Irony is, if situations like that happen and the BP gets the person they want, they lose interest really quickly and it tends to turn to hatred pretty rapidly too.

But it could well explain why she is so desperate to stick to his story even though to do so would seem to be catastrophic in terms of her own defence.

So the thrill is in not being wanted, the fight to be loved. When they've got them, there is no more pain, the familiarity of conflict. They thrive on drama and dysfunction.
 
It's just that strange story she gave that morning about the godfather that bugs me more than anything else. Unless she'd said she had to stay off on the Friday because Ellie wasn't well, and she'd found someone else that Monday morning to look after Ellie, but why even claim Ellie was still unwell on the Monday if so? It seems she was already setting up an alibi for BB not being there that morning.

There's something there Tortoise but just IDK what it is: ( numbering as it's clearer!)
1. She lied to work (godfather BB away etc) but she is a Billy Liar/Mitty IMO about even the inconsequential. When I was managing a large team I would often get staff who used to lie that there was an emerg child care need and that's why they were late, when actually they just over-slept. These were staff but also friends , so they would fess up once we were on nights out LOL. Anyway thats by the by . Remember the kid at school who always lied for often zero reason, over pointless things/no benefit to them - could that be her? ( I rem a girl like that, she was lovely actually, definitely not P.Disorder of course)

2. Yes it could work lovely as an alibi for BB but if they were that cunning ( which we know they are now) they would not have her running on CCTV, looking so shocked over the phone as colleagues said, saying stuff to taxi drivers about being unwell , him even making calls unless they had two throwaway phones etc.

on the OTOH - the yes, it's an alibi
1. When BB said she was thinking of not going in that morn was that based on the trains not running or she just wasn't that bothered? Latter makes no sense to me, sole bread winner, likely probationary period at work etc etc. All staff would be expected to use an alternative route esp. in Sth London and just be a little late if station is closed.
2. Why didn't she just say my daughter is still ill ( if that is the excuse she used for the Friday before?) and as my OH is busy I needed to get childcare etc. I agree it doesn't make sense - why send him HOURS away in this excuse.
3. These 2 are a very devious pair and they can really "stage" stuff & plot but there are errors which don't fit : she already knew at c.9.30-10.30 am that a serious assault/death had happened /was going to happen.

It is very weird though. It's in my notes from the day the colleagues testified ,my note says "Why use this – as an excuse for being late? But train station was closed! Could the assualt have happened before she left ie. 9am? My theory makes no sense, why is she lying ?"

Yes I smell a rat but I'm not sure it's the jumbo-sized rat you've got, but equally , I never like to pour cold water on sleuthing so we just have to follow where it goes, that's what WS is for. .... it might turn up something really intriguing that's been covered up.

hopefully that makes sense.

massive humdinger in morn, Ellie already on her "last chance" for BB, JG is delayed leaving?
PS. I can't remember the details of the "kisses, sweetheart" texts from her en route but yes that fits an "alibi" scenario.
 
It's just that strange story she gave that morning about the godfather that bugs me more than anything else. Unless she'd said she had to stay off on the Friday because Ellie wasn't well, and she'd found someone else that Monday morning to look after Ellie, but why even claim Ellie was still unwell on the Monday if so? It seems she was already setting up an alibi for BB not being there that morning.
But BB had already said he was there that morning becuz he told them to go and play in their rooms. And he fell asleep in the living room.
But what makes NO sense to me is. Why say he was in Cornwall as his father was ill..... why randomly add that?


Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
 
She's utterly crazy. Who would sit in court correcting the prosecutor every time he mentions blue shirt, to say it's cornflower actually, her voice booming around the courtroom as she virtually eats the court microphone. I mean FFS. Does she think the beautiful goddess of flowers will smile down on her or something?

Oh my god!! I am agog!!
How pretentious and pedantic.

I can really see now what you meant in an earlier post about pretensions to elegance, way she speaks plummy-drunk etc etc etc.
So she is bobbing her head up & down to the mike as well?
 
She's utterly crazy. Who would sit in court correcting the prosecutor every time he mentions blue shirt, to say it's cornflower actually, her voice booming around the courtroom as she virtually eats the court microphone. I mean FFS. Does she think the beautiful goddess of flowers will smile down on her or something?
YES.....I think she prepared just that very spell Tortoise !
Sorry had to giggle

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
 
Yep, that is the most obvious first question, but it hasn't even occurred to them.

BB doesn't ask sister who was apparently in the room with Ellie when it happened,
sister apparently carries on watching telly and doesn't bat an eyelid,
and JD doesn't ask BB.
It's just the lil things. Those things are missing..

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
 
Oh my god!! I am agog!!
How pretentious and pedantic.

I can really see now what you meant in an earlier post about pretensions to elegance, way she speaks plummy-drunk etc etc etc.
So she is bobbing her head up & down to the mike as well?

She and BB are very similar in that respect.

He was cracking jokes and she tries to belittle the prosecutor. She called him a vile, vile man today, several times. They're both under the delusion that the jury are loving them for it, are on their side. They've rehearsed this line that goes something like 'this trial is another miscarriage of justice, this wasn't murder, and YOU KNOW IT!' She thinks she's on Britain's Got Talent I reckon, the way she gets up close to the mic, and enjoys the attention.
 
But BB had already said he was there that morning becuz he told them to go and play in their rooms. And he fell asleep in the living room.
But what makes NO sense to me is. Why say he was in Cornwall as his father was ill..... why randomly add that?


Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

It makes no sense Gigi. Did you know that he has no relationship with either his father or his step-father? Hasn't seen them since he was late teens/20ish. And I don't know where they live now but when he was growing up it was in Cambridgeshire.

BB didn't admit he was there at first. He tried to pretend on the emergency call that he'd just come in. I think he was originally going to ask Ian to come over, and when that failed he asked JG to come home.
 
I doubt the way she's behaving is endearing her to the jury. Why would you be so rude to shout cornflower down the mic in court?! Makes her look nitpicking and pretentious. Your description made me laugh though, Tortoise - they're like some mad double act, if they're obnoxious enough, they'll go free!
 
She and BB are very similar in that respect.

He was cracking jokes and she tries to belittle the prosecutor. She called him a vile, vile man today, several times. They're both under the delusion that the jury are loving them for it, are on their side. They've rehearsed this line that goes something like 'this trial is another miscarriage of justice, this wasn't murder, and YOU KNOW IT!' She thinks she's on Britain's Got Talent I reckon, the way she gets up close to the mic, and enjoys the attention.

Yes I saw "vile" in the reports and "nasty" re police.
Satisfying that they are unknowingly on the wrong track with the jury. You could help them along with a little gratuitous nodding from the Public Gallery ;)
YOU KNOW IT - shouty shouty - it said that in reports, that she was shouting a lot.
Yup - you've really painted a picture of these two, I can almost see her bobbing, enjoying her time.

A previous poster said she is always pouting etc. It's true but it's that defiant pursed lips thing, condescending.

She doesn't know who she is dealing with .......the jury!

Judge sounds great - highlighting he had 6mo bail so that they could collaborate versions ad nauseum.

It's fascinating to see we have a new poster who poss knew her as a gel!

Would love to know what the mysterious Ian thinks about all this.
 

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
229
Guests online
2,081
Total visitors
2,310

Forum statistics

Threads
599,796
Messages
18,099,701
Members
230,927
Latest member
Double
Back
Top