GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #2

[Lyra500]

Someone asked why more people didn't turn up to give evidence for the prosecution. I have read more than one potential witness saying that they were scared to death of BB. Given the vile threatening message he sent to Ellie's grand parents, I can understand why.

 

[ColourPurple]

Thank you for the link, cotton weaver.
Yes, I was asked if I was happy to be adopted and some other questions too. I was only five but I remember it clearly. It was in an office rather than a court, and I asked the judge why she didn't have a wig on. She took me into the empty courtroom so I could see what it was like. No reason why Ellie couldn't have had her say too.
They just rode rough shod over her rights and feelings, in my opinion. She must have been so homesick for her grandparents, afraid and unhappy. It makes me so sad.

They acted like they were rehoming a dog rather than a little girl who had spent almost her whole life in a happy loving home with the grandparents who adored her

 

[michelle230]

Hi – not long in as went to work straight from Old Bailey. This website is amazing. I can`t believe the wealth of information that has been unearthed. Thanks to everyone for adding so many pieces of the jigsaw that were previously unknown.
I got there literally as the jury were coming back into the court. The guys on the stairs who bag check (who are like old friends now!!) told me “Quick, quick – the jury`s going back in with their verdict”. Just made it to the mamo second!
I did make lots of scribbled notes but much of what I wrote is out there/on here already so I won`t repeat.
No family/friends were there. There were about 10-12 members of the public, but we were joined by some of the court staff themselves.
The first part (verdict) actually was over very quickly 5-10 minutes. Guilty…guilty…guilty….There was not really shouting/screaming/hysteria. Mutterings, but it was over quickly and really calmer than I had anticipated. I think they knew what was coming. I think that even though they gave it their best shot, listening to the horrific summing up – they knew…
BB did not stand up as instructed to, before the judge, when the foreman was invited to give the verdicts . Let`s face it – he`s too good for that (gag!). She did. When the judge made some brief remarks after the verdict, he did shout a bit (can`t remember what) and was removed. When she was told that the sentencing would be given shortly and to expect immediate custodial, she shrugged and gestured as if to say “OK, big deal”, I think partly to show contempt and also because (I believe) in their crazy minds, they were thinking “Don`t worry. if we`re found guilty we`ll appeal like last time and get in overturned”. I think they really clung to that as if it would just be a technicality to deal with. I think it will be some time, really, before the raw truth slowly sinks in. There will be no appeal. Not this time. The game is over. They lost.
(Part two coming up…!)

 

[Lyra500]

They acted like they were rehoming a dog rather than a little girl who had spent almost her whole life in a happy loving home with the grandparents who adored her

To be honest, I think think there are a few dog rehoming services which take more time and care than S4C did.

 

[cottonweaver]

Could be either or both I guess but it did make me wonder if maybe some of the injuries were self inflicted rather than being from BB. Being in hospitla also kept her away from BB. I can't work out why she took the younger daughter to hospital with her and left Ellie with him... ah actually maybe I can. Maybe Ellie was injured too and was not in a fit state to be seen in public and would have aroused the suspicion of medical staff.

Like you BB, I have no doubt that she was battered black and blue by this monster BB ( he beat HH with an IRON bar) , but I also think your BIB is not unreasonable too, because she had malingering aspects, or so it says.
Was this simply to get away from him/the situation/ to be looked after or is there some self harming too.

Psych mentions self harming at one point in the earlier report of SSRC, BUT I have to take anything either says with a pinch of salt, as they ran rings around everyone.

 

[jog]

Hi – not long in as went to work straight from Old Bailey. This website is amazing. I can`t believe the wealth of information that has been unearthed. Thanks to everyone for adding so many pieces of the jigsaw that were previously unknown.
I got there literally as the jury were coming back into the court. The guys on the stairs who bag check (who are like old friends now!!) told me “Quick, quick – the jury`s going back in with their verdict”. Just made it to the mamo second!
I did make lots of scribbled notes but much of what I wrote is out there/on here already so I won`t repeat.
No family/friends were there. There were about 10-12 members of the public, but we were joined by some of the court staff themselves.
The first part (verdict) actually was over very quickly 5-10 minutes. Guilty…guilty…guilty….There was not really shouting/screaming/hysteria. Mutterings, but it was over quickly and really calmer than I had anticipated. I think they knew what was coming. I think that even though they gave it their best shot, listening to the horrific summing up – they knew…
BB did not stand up as instructed to, before the judge, when the foreman was invited to give the verdicts . Let`s face it – he`s too good for that (gag!). She did. When the judge made some brief remarks after the verdict, he did shout a bit (can`t remember what) and was removed. When she was told that the sentencing would be given shortly and to expect immediate custodial, she shrugged and gestured as if to say “OK, big deal”, I think partly to show contempt and also because (I believe) in their crazy minds, they were thinking “Don`t worry. if we`re found guilty we`ll appeal like last time and get in overturned”. I think they really clung to that as if it would just be a technicality to deal with. I think it will be some time, really, before the raw truth slowly sinks in. There will be no appeal. Not this time. The game is over. They lost.
(Part two coming up…!)

I await part 2 ! However I know I sound vindictive but I really really hope both have a terrible time in prison! I think JG will as one she is not used to it and 2 women in prison are especially nasty to ladies involved in deaths of children. Holloway is not a nice place!! She will have a tough time although I am sure she will allege suicide and place herself on the medical wing !

He is a survivor and will no doubt be ok he will be placed on a separate wing until this all dies down so will be one a wing with as he put it last time with all the nonces so I couldn't have a photo up of Ellie! Interestingly when he described that last experience he failed to mention that he had experienced being on her majesty's pleasure on several occasions so was fully aware of what it was like!

A
You listen to poor grandad who walks along his garden and says he is on his own now and that reiterates their evil actions!

As an aside I noted his comment upon conviction about what was On you tube ! I f I am not allowed to say this I apologise but it is clear it was put up deliberately with his knowledge and further that those who reported it were right to as it is now blocked. Again well done !

 

[cottonweaver]

Thank you again Michelle for feeding back to us. That was really fascinating. Even court staff came in to see this duo "bang to rights". All the little anecdotes add to it - court staff, bag checking bezzies.......you brought it to life.

Game over indeed, on the legal side. An appeal denied, watch this space.

IDK which news site it was but it had her doing the filming via her phone malarkey , of a cameraman who was in front. The JG walk and look was ridiculous. She was storming. But there you go , her previous ambition was to be an actress. ( It could even be vid from her arrival this morning, the woman is in denial, what can she do with that film clip -nothing.)
Your description of her in dock, she still thinks she has a bit part in The Bill.

 

[Legally Bland]

I think this article has been updated.

During Services For Children’s (S4C) assessment of Ellie after the 2012 ruling it was made clear to the social workers by both Ellie and her grandparents that the girl did not want to return to her parents.

“When they came round she used to hide under the table or behind the curtains,” Neal Gray said. “She started bed-wetting, which she had never done before, and told us she was having nightmares that they would come and take her away from us and back to her parents while she was sleeping.”

When Ellie asked her grandparents if she could speak to the judge, the independent social workers said this was not necessary.

On 28 October 2012, Ellie had a visit with her parents. When she returned she had a large bruise on her forehead. Her grandparents reported the bruise to both the GP and Ellie’s school.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ilty-of-murdering-six-year-old-daughter-ellie

 

[Tortoise]

I await part 2 ! However I know I sound vindictive but I really really hope both have a terrible time in prison! I think JG will as one she is not used to it and 2 women in prison are especially nasty to ladies involved in deaths of children. Holloway is not a nice place!! She will have a tough time although I am sure she will allege suicide and place herself on the medical wing !

He is a survivor and will no doubt be ok he will be placed on a separate wing until this all dies down so will be one a wing with as he put it last time with all the nonces so I couldn't have a photo up of Ellie! Interestingly when he described that last experience he failed to mention that he had experienced being on her majesty's pleasure on several occasions so was fully aware of what it was like!

A
You listen to poor grandad who walks along his garden and says he is on his own now and that reiterates their evil actions!

As an aside I noted his comment upon conviction about what was On you tube ! I f I am not allowed to say this I apologise but it is clear it was put up deliberately with his knowledge and further that those who reported it were right to as it is now blocked. Again well done !

BIB I won't mention it's contents, because clearly it was illegally obtained and posted on YT, but where did you find his comments jog? I haven't seen reference to that in today's reports.

 

[Tillymint]

I wondered what had been said about the YouTube thing over the weekend and who posted it.
I agree that JG has been strutting around, pouting, like she's some famous star. Totally inappropriate. Having heard the way she carried on in court, nodding and shouting... ugh! She might feel a little different once the lights go off tonight and the door slams shut.

 

[cottonweaver]

Hi Jog, you know no-one is going to shout you down on here re any feelings like that. ^

You know what though I think he will have a tough time in prison too.
He has little control, he hates being humiliated ( or so he says) , this is a proper stretch and he is a CHILD KILLER, this is not the type of crime he went in for in the last convictions.
Will he be on the "nonces wing" again? Presumably. He hates that, so that will ratchet up the pressure and he'll maybe lash out at the wrong person.

Previously he must have always had a release date near on the horizon. Not this time. Last time he must have played the system to some extent, now he has lost, that will sink in, he no longer has any control.
She will write him weekly and he will make her life hell by blaming her and not responding. His lawyer will drop him soon.

He already has a poor record for aggression to prison staff but there will be some tough nuts inside who will soon know he is coming and he will be taunted from the first night. Presume he's back in Belmarsh tonight.... they'll be catcalling in the dark already.

 

[Gigi-G]

Ellie did indeed think she was going for a sleepover; four days after the incompetent "Services 4 Children" ripped her away from her grandparents, JG and BB phoned them up to gripe about Ellie's behaviour and that she thought it was only a temporary sleepover.

Services 4 Children were absolutely cruel. At first they were only supposed to be overseeing YD's return, then they decided Ellie should return too. It was supposed to be a slow process to ease Ellie in to the change, but it ended up happening in a few weeks. If I remember rightly it was supposed to happen slowly over a year, then it was reduced to by the end of 2013, then the end of November after a sleepover, then the 9th of November. There was no sleepover, it just happened suddenly. S4C didn't even allow the grandparents to say goodbye; the grandparents dropped Ellie off at school one morning as normal, then JG and BB came to pick her up and that was that. Ellie had no idea. S4C forbade contact between Ellie and the grandparents for 4 weeks to get her used to it.


S4C insisted that the grandparents should not discuss the move with Ellie, although the grandparents wanted to be honest and open. Ellie was terrified every time S4C visited and would try to hide. She had nightmares about them taking her away and began to wet the bed. S4C paid no attention to Ellie's loving bond with her grandparents and her deep wish to stay with them, and forced her to live with JG and BB despite their belligerence and incompetence (including JG not bothering to take time off work for YD's introduction).

As well as failing to prioritise Ellie's wishes, then failing to ease her in slowly (effectively sending Ellie to live with hostile strangers), S4C also failed to contact people who had previously worked with Ellie, so that they didn't have a full picture of what was going on.

No wonder people are terrified of social workers, when they behave like this - suddenly ripping children away against their welfare and wishes, without telling them what's happening and without allowing them to say goodbye to their loved ones.

S4C should not be allowed to practice.

That's horrendous. No wonder she was wetting herself. She was scared deadstraight. She was lied to. And all she wanted was 'her' bed, her Grampy n nanny n her home. She knew nothing else. She knew of JG BB. but probably thought they were just family. In a child's understanding her here and now. Would be her norm. And where she felt 'safe'

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[cottonweaver]

duplicate post

 

[Tillymint]

Does anyone have the full text of the judge's sentencing comments today?

 

[Gigi-G]

Someone asked why more people didn't turn up to give evidence for the prosecution. I have read more than one potential witness saying that they were scared to death of BB. Given the vile threatening message he sent to Ellie's grand parents, I can understand why.

I can imagine he and she know a few dubious souls. That he could ring and call on. They are both malicious. With intent. But the only thing they covet the most is themselves. He more so than her.
I'm thinking of a kind of 'Stockholm Syndrome' for JG. As I can't pin it down her demeanor. Her attitude. Her priorities. She was very lapsidaisical. Hmmm. Case review I can see coming on.


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[michelle230]

Less than an hour later we went back in for the sentencing.
At this point JG had been given a note by the police telling her that her mother had died (on the day the trial began – how devastating for the grandparents).
The judge was a star. He was calm, unruffled, in control, concise, direct.
He began by stating that in the next hour BB would hear some very unpleasant things and warned that the first time he opened his mouth, he would be removed. It would not be tolerated.
I think you all know what the judge said esp re BBs previous long list of bad character history. Throughout, the truth is that BB looked as I have not seen him before. Shocked…..very shocked…. and tearful all the way through. Can you believe that JG was actually *stroking his face* to soothe him. Pity she didn`t stroke her beaten, abused, unhappy little girl`s face but there we go! She gave him her hand and he was stroking and kissing it throughout. He really was in shock. The judge went on after listing all his previous to say that the sentence for murder starts at 15 years, but there were the other factors to be taken into account e.g. that this was anything but a one off, that he was a violent, selfish, controlling, bullying character, that he was not a good father, inadequate, self pitying, covering up, trying to lay the blame of JG, calculating, devious liar, trying to involve his friend, depriving Ellie of dignity in death etc. He summed up saying that in view of the serious additional aggravating factors he was giving him 23 years, but possibly he would never be released and if he ever was it would be on license (I think that was the word).
Then to her. When the judge brought up the mother`s death, JG broke into loud sobs and continue to sob and blow her nose loudly throughout. He cried too (for himself) and they were continuously being handed a box of tissues by the court staff. I was listening to the judge but watching them the whole time. It was surreal. The three court staff in the dock with them (two of them big burly men) sat impassively looking ahead, but I wondered what they were thinking. At this point we had been joined in the public gallery by at least three other court staff who came to witness and watch.
The judge told us of JGs two previous convictions for benefit fraud (over £10,000 I think) which she had been ordered to repay. My only misgiving is that he seemed too soft (generous) in my personal opinion.
Part 3 coming up..

 

[Gigi-G]

Hi – not long in as went to work straight from Old Bailey. This website is amazing. I can`t believe the wealth of information that has been unearthed. Thanks to everyone for adding so many pieces of the jigsaw that were previously unknown.
I got there literally as the jury were coming back into the court. The guys on the stairs who bag check (who are like old friends now!!) told me “Quick, quick – the jury`s going back in with their verdict”. Just made it to the mamo second!
I did make lots of scribbled notes but much of what I wrote is out there/on here already so I won`t repeat.
No family/friends were there. There were about 10-12 members of the public, but we were joined by some of the court staff themselves.
The first part (verdict) actually was over very quickly 5-10 minutes. Guilty…guilty…guilty….There was not really shouting/screaming/hysteria. Mutterings, but it was over quickly and really calmer than I had anticipated. I think they knew what was coming. I think that even though they gave it their best shot, listening to the horrific summing up – they knew…
BB did not stand up as instructed to, before the judge, when the foreman was invited to give the verdicts . Let`s face it – he`s too good for that (gag!). She did. When the judge made some brief remarks after the verdict, he did shout a bit (can`t remember what) and was removed. When she was told that the sentencing would be given shortly and to expect immediate custodial, she shrugged and gestured as if to say “OK, big deal”, I think partly to show contempt and also because (I believe) in their crazy minds, they were thinking “Don`t worry. if we`re found guilty we`ll appeal like last time and get in overturned”. I think they really clung to that as if it would just be a technicality to deal with. I think it will be some time, really, before the raw truth slowly sinks in. There will be no appeal. Not this time. The game is over. They lost.
(Part two coming up…!)

Brilliant thank you Michelle x

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[Legally Bland]

I'd like to see the letter of instruction to S4C. It sounds like they were given the priority of reuniting Ellie with her parents, rather than acting out the best interests of her welfare.

 

[jog]

I will look again on the thread but a reported link I read said he was shouting about an appeal and that the jury should watch you tube etc. The newspaper report said what you tube showed and that the jury had not see this and it had been illegally put up or wthef. I will find it u less anyone else k owe immediately the source ?

 

[Legally Bland]

Does anyone have the full text of the judge's sentencing comments today?

https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/r-v-butler-gray-sentencing.pdf