GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #2

[neteditor]

Hehe Gigi cheesey Friday night sounds ace. I've got no television so my friday cheese is 90s night on the radio station

Aldi had rhubarb in the 49c specials this week so I just made a yummy crumble and custard... and ate all the leftovers I'm sooooo greedy I'm just going to do the dishes and head to bed. My 9 year old is begging me to go to bed with her :/

I hope you have a lovely night

 

[Gigi-G]

It is Gi-Gi - a long read! Had to read over three sittings!

Phew.. im glad it is Michelle im only part thru myself. Ive the whole family here this weekend. So i much doubt I'll get much chance to look at it but in bed. Lol.
But its not as if it's easy reading either. If you skim you might miss something.
Alls good then
I know i havent got to fill my fone with something else 😃


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[Gigi-G]

Haha theyre usually quieter cheesey nights. Except i think my 2 younger ones are wondering about the euref n what will happen mom? Lol as if i know. Oh wait Daves on the end of my twitter i'll ask him.... :/
Omg i havent had a proper rhubarb crumble in YEARS!!
OHhhh thats it im gonna have to send the grumpy one out to find some tomorrow. Lucky you! I bet it was delicious too! Im well jel now haha!
No tv. Ahh Cottonweaver diesnt have a tv either. Im afraid. If i didnt have a tv id be sat in a corner somewhere talking to myself while rocking. 😂
My spelling will get ever so bad soon. And then i will disappear. Cuz ive took all my meds n had 3 glasses of pink fizz.
So apologies in advance! :/

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[Gigi-G]

G'night Michelle Cottonweaver Tortoise Neteditor. Sleep well stay safe 🤗

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[neteditor]

Hahah just like me - meds and wine and wheeeeeeeee

I posted a link to the crumble recipe on your visitor messages It was really easy and turned out scrummy. The custard was shop bought though

Night night sleep well, to you and all the night visitors

 

[Gigi-G]

Hahah just like me - meds and wine and wheeeeeeeee

I posted a link to the crumble recipe on your visitor messages It was really easy and turned out scrummy. The custard was shop bought though

Night night sleep well, to you and all the night visitors

Awh tysm. I shall defo give it a try! Oh i like making custard from the powder n sugar n milk. But I like the shop bought too 😉
Im drooling already. Haha!
Its soo humid tonight. N the flipping oxygen machine dont half heat up. Whewww

Gonna quickly take up a thermos flask of ice cold fresh lemonade. It keeps coffee nice n hot so its gotta keep same with cold..
Sweet dreams

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[PrimeSuspect]

Thanks CW - I am fairly well researched in PDs and have many books at home on the topic, but do find it hard to fully work these two out. I think there is a view now that sociopathy and psychopathy are more or less the same thing. The DSM- iv manual lists and characterises the various PDs

http://www.psi.uba.ar/academica/car...ica_tr_personalidad_psicosis/material/dsm.pdf

Thank you for the link. I'm fascinated by this area as it's personally touched my life as well. The term anti-social personality disorder covers sociopathy/psychopathy it appears. There seems to be a cross over where the cluster B's share similar traits and yet there are differences.
Maybe, BB has anti-social and narcissism? JG, borderline and histrionic? Whatever they've got, it was a fatal combination for children within their clutches. poor Ellie. :cry: JMO

 

[jog]

Thank you for the link. I'm fascinated by this area as it's personally touched my life as well. The term anti-social personality disorder covers sociopathy/psychopathy it appears. There seems to be a cross over where the cluster B's share similar traits and yet there are differences.
Maybe, BB has anti-social and narcissism? JG, borderline and histrionic? Whatever they've got, it was a fatal combination for children within their clutches. poor Ellie. :cry: JMO

Regarding the yt video. It was clearly JG as evidencing by BB calling out when convicted ABE videos are subject to strict undertakings from all parties who view them. Defence solicitors sign an undertaking to keep the disc and not to disclose it to anyone or allow it to be copied and have to keep it locked securely when not using it You are not allowed to copy it and give it to your client they can only watch it with you you are only released from that undertakingwhen you return it to the cps or police . Now BB did represent himself at the beginning o believe but I would doubt he would have had a copy by then as they are not usually served straight away but he then represented himself later o believe when he sacked his solicitors. They have to then jive him his whole file of papers but should have got permission to give him the abe disc . Someone is going to be on big trouble for this . If he had the disc he must have given it JG on a visit which he would be allowed to hand over items for his defence the prison would not check what it was So they must have had this little plan up their sleeves for a while as clearly she had time to edit it The fact it actually shows so little speaks volumes. If more had been said in their defence it would have been on the clip. Also they would have not spared the identity of yd and would have insisted it be played. I would imagine in the time they had before they called the ambulance they kept tellingyd that Ellie must have jumped off the chair watching peppa pig so the idea was planted in her head if asked . Because she was taken off them from the hospital I believe.

Btw for those who were there for the verdict , as soon as it was announced was JG then sent down to the cells or was she let out of the dock for the hour?

I notice once again it is all about him or sentence now ! Did he ask JG if that was what she wanted ? Maybe she would have wanted a report prepared upon her to assist the judge in sentencing! Also does anyone know of it was mentioned if she had a curfew whilst on bail as if she did she every day on curfew counts as half a day towards her sentence at the end . So they now have 28 days from sentence to lodge the paperwork for an appeal unless they later apply to appeal out of time due to new evidence so let's watch this space. They will be able to write to each other and will be given phone calls to each other from prison to prison every 3 weeks or so so will no doubt still be concocting together although I note Michelle's reading of it was that it seemed like the fight had gone from BB at the end. Let's hope it has and the family can now move on!

 

[cottonweaver]

Thanks for this fascinating input from neteditor

Great insights from an insider. Wish we had had you here during trial.

 

[neteditor]

Thank you Cottonweaver, I so nearly registered and joined in so many times, sorry I didn't do it before, good to be here now though.

Hi Jog. Your thoughts there on the video sparked another notion for me. If there was any chance at all that those interviews could have supported BB's "jumping and falling" defence, we can be absolutely certain their barrister would have used it in his defence. I wonder who could be so arrogant as to believe they knew better than a Queen's Counsel, hmmmmm?

In the video (date stamped 20 November, 3 weeks after Ellie died) the child is clearly saying she wants to go and tell "mummy and daddy" what she has drawn and said. She must still have been in the care of her parents for an unknown period of time after Ellie's death.

This snippet from the case review is the only place YD (Child S)'s placement in foster care after the death is mentioned and it is ambiguous in that it doesn't categorically say it is right after the fatality. It only says she was examined the day after being placed in foster care, not the day after the death.

"At the time of Child D’s death, Child S was present at the hospital and well cared for by staff, but there was no medical examination. Ms M subsequently declined permission, an Emergency Protection Order (EPO) was obtained, Child S was placed in foster care and when examined the following day bruising to the back was recorded."

The chilling thing there though is it seems that at some point perhaps weeks after Ellie's death, the younger daughter had bruising on her back. Despite causing one child's death he still couldn't stop himself being abusive?

 

[cottonweaver]

Neteditor

On bail for JG

Jog brought this up a few weeks ago, as far as I recall, we concluded that she didn't have any bail restrictions.

( Afraid I never saw the leaked video, just glad the eagle eyes on here did. )

so It's 28 days to appeal, more than likely. I hope they don't waste any more time & Legal Aid, but I wouldn't put it past him..

PS On the media applying to get the re lease of2014 family court judgment ( table leg) and the original Hogg Judgment ( i guess it isn't back up on Bailli ) - what's your feeling neteditor? ( Guardian link)
Secondly, I thought it was pretty damning that the judiciary didn't contribute their Indep Manag Rev to the Serious Case Review, recently made public.
Are the two things linked , do you reckon?
Do you think it's a specious argument from Pauffey - he may appeal etc?

 

[neteditor]

Neteditor

On bail for JG

Jog brought this up a few weeks ago, as far as I recall, we concluded that she didn't have any bail restrictions.

( Afraid I never saw the leaked video, just glad the eagle eyes on here did. )

so It's 28 days to appeal, more than likely. I hope they don't waste any more time & Legal Aid, but I wouldn't put it past him..

PS On the media applying to get the re lease of2014 family court judgment ( table leg) and the original Hogg Judgment ( i guess it isn't back up on Bailli ) - what's your feeling neteditor? ( Guardian link)
Secondly, I thought it was pretty damning that the judiciary didn't contribute their Indep Manag Rev to the Serious Case Review, recently made public.
Are the two things linked , do you reckon?
Do you think it's a specious argument from Pauffey - he may appeal etc?

In my experience it's fairly uncommon for the media to bring court applications to have info released. I presume they already know what is in the judgments or it wouldn't be worth them taking legal action. My feeling is we'll never see those published though. I hadn't thought about the link between those judgments and the case review but now you mention it I think you are probably right. There is nothing in the case review that would affect a future retrial that I can see.

The problem with appealing a criminal conviction is you have to have certain grounds (ie some court procedure wasn't followed properly in the trial or significant evidence that wasn't heard in the trial comes to light). You can't just appeal because the verdict doesn't suit you. Given BB seems to know his way around the court system well and is pretty litigious, I'd bet everything was done to the very letter throughout. I don't see any reason to appeal at this stage, we'll know within a month or so.

 

[Gigi-G]

Regarding the yt video. It was clearly JG as evidencing by BB calling out when convicted ABE videos are subject to strict undertakings from all parties who view them. Defence solicitors sign an undertaking to keep the disc and not to disclose it to anyone or allow it to be copied and have to keep it locked securely when not using it You are not allowed to copy it and give it to your client they can only watch it with you you are only released from that undertakingwhen you return it to the cps or police . Now BB did represent himself at the beginning o believe but I would doubt he would have had a copy by then as they are not usually served straight away but he then represented himself later o believe when he sacked his solicitors. They have to then jive him his whole file of papers but should have got permission to give him the abe disc . Someone is going to be on big trouble for this . If he had the disc he must have given it JG on a visit which he would be allowed to hand over items for his defence the prison would not check what it was So they must have had this little plan up their sleeves for a while as clearly she had time to edit it The fact it actually shows so little speaks volumes. If more had been said in their defence it would have been on the clip. Also they would have not spared the identity of yd and would have insisted it be played. I would imagine in the time they had before they called the ambulance they kept tellingyd that Ellie must have jumped off the chair watching peppa pig so the idea was planted in her head if asked . Because she was taken off them from the hospital I believe.

Btw for those who were there for the verdict , as soon as it was announced was JG then sent down to the cells or was she let out of the dock for the hour?

I notice once again it is all about him or sentence now ! Did he ask JG if that was what she wanted ? Maybe she would have wanted a report prepared upon her to assist the judge in sentencing! Also does anyone know of it was mentioned if she had a curfew whilst on bail as if she did she every day on curfew counts as half a day towards her sentence at the end . So they now have 28 days from sentence to lodge the paperwork for an appeal unless they later apply to appeal out of time due to new evidence so let's watch this space. They will be able to write to each other and will be given phone calls to each other from prison to prison every 3 weeks or so so will no doubt still be concocting together although I note Michelle's reading of it was that it seemed like the fight had gone from BB at the end. Let's hope it has and the family can now move on!

Wow jog. You've certainly opened my eyes to this ever twisting controversial case. Its quite well out of the ordinary in my own personal view.
Rather dramatic. Seedy. Evil and down right contentious.
So he 'they' can lodge an appeal just weekes after his /their sentencing?
Via their legal teams. Im sure Judge Wilkie covered all the bases. Hence throwing in the 'manslaughter' conviction. In case the murder wouldnt sit with the jury.

The Vid on YT. Will there be an investigation into it? If not why not as it could of been very detrimental in Court. As is was put there not just for all to see. It was put up to create mayhem.

And as yr an 'insider' so to speak. How do you think the YT will pan out once the perp is identified?
And re appeal. What can they use in their appeal? Do you think an appeal will be likely?

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[theirmommy]

I am so many pages behind.
Hope to catch up soon

 

[michelle230]

PrimeS - I`m also very fascinated by this area as I was brought up by a "mother" who was a malignant narcissist. The fall out from this has been truly horrendous. I finally realised in my early 40s and have been studying the subject for over 10 years. From my own personal experience I know that a human being`s ability to block out abuse - even as an intelligent adult never mind a child, is shockingly strong.
One question I ponder over - I`m always pondering over something lol - what is more evil? Those who are so evil that they don`t even know it (have awareness) or those who have an awareness of evil but continue to behave in the same manner? Answers on a postcard please!!

 

[neteditor]

Gigi - just stepping on Jog's toes for a minute - I would think the YT upload will be investigated as it is a criminal offence, but if they find it is JG who did it I doubt any further action will be taken, especially as it didn't affect the trial result in the end anyway. And she's already gone down.

Michelle, you have my utmost sympathy and understanding, also from personal experience. It takes a very long time to fully realise it was never your fault, and even then there's a little voice that rears up in our worst down moments. I definitely would say the more evil are those who are aware but carry on regardless. Even more evil are the ones who convince themselves they never did a thing wrong. I'm also still suffering but we have to be strong and not let them win. Sending you kind hugs xx

 

[michelle230]

Lol Gi-Gi! I understand the "panic" of trying to make time to keep abreast/read up on all the info/catch up/respond to the posts etc!!!!! Sometimes I have to hide the laptop from myself so I can try to focus on my ever growing "to do" list! I`m on a course tomorrow (linked to PDs and family estrangement caused by PDs), going to attend a local court on Monday to hear the sentencing of a case I have been following, and the rest of the week going to a local school to help my music teacher friend with the end of year school show. She`s panicking!!!

 

[michelle230]

Neteditor, thank you for the long, detailed reply. I am going to read it soon (slowly!!) when I have a clear head!
Michelle x

 

[neteditor]

I apologise if this has been mentioned before. I don't recall seeing it but may have missed it.

JG and Ellie both have the same way of fake smiling. Look at the image of JG from This Morning at the top of this article, then scroll down to the image of Ellie and JG, presumably during a contact meeting. That one-sided lift of the lip, and the same side, but no smile in the eyes.

http://www.theguardian.com/law/2016...uses-to-publish-ben-butler-judgment-from-2014

 

[michelle230]

Hi Jog,
He was totally deflated in a similar fashion to when he assaulted his ex and then cried like a little boy - the typical battering first as emotions out of control, then the crying (short lived remorse?) after. But it is obvious they will appeal - after all it worked like a dream last time and they have nothing to lose. I simply cannot see it being allowed though. I think the wonderful judge may have been chosen specifically for this case. This couple (IMO driven by her) have played and manipulated absolutely everyone to a breathtaking degree. My guess is that she will have them running around in circles and spend most of her time in the prison hospital. The SCR stated that in one particular period she had presented herself to hospital * 16 times in 8 months *. Attention seeking, perhaps even munchausen.
Re him asking to be sentenced "NOW. Do it NOW so I can start my appeal". He repeated this 3 times (outburst) as the judge was trying to speak. It was spontaneous, so no - it wasn`t something she had discussed and who knows whether she wanted time made for pre sentencing reports or whether the judge was thinking about this.
I found it interesting that he gave her the maximum for perverting the course of justice (max 36 m - she got 33m), yet very, very much towards the lightest amount for child cruelty. I don`t understand this. I wonder if he had (undeserved) compassion for her hearing about her mother.
Re the video - when would this have been made? I really don`t get this part because YD was immediately removed from her care, wasn`t she?
I vaguely remember something about him shouting out about the video - it wasn`t too clear to me and I didn`t know anything about it - but he shouted about it after the sentencing when he was being "taken down".