GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #2

[squish]

Gigi G - there are DNA tests you can get such as Ancestry DNA which can find relatives if you're lucky

 

[Gigi-G]

Gigi G - there are DNA tests you can get such as Ancestry DNA which can find relatives if you're lucky

Thankyou squish. I dont even know if my birth father would be alive now. If he is hes gotta be old old now lol cuz im a fossil 😂

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[Melanie Regan]

Hello all,

I've come late I this thread after another forum I am on mentioning it.

I have found a lot of the details I have read extremely upsetting so have not read the review etc but I have some questions:

Am I right that JG and BB did not live together until after Mrs Justice Hodges exonerated them and basically sealed poor Ellie's fate? And if I am right did Sutton council provide them with their home?
Did BB and JG grown up in the Sutton area, go to school there etc? My reason for asking is that I think I recognise her from the HSBC/benefit fraud picture
Have I misunderstood that BB had family and friends attend the trial in a supportive capacity?

Many years ago when I was a little girl me and my family lived on the same Close where Ellie was murdered; I think possibly that is one of the reasons I am so upset about this case. Also my own child was born on just a few days before Ellie was killed and on the date of Ellie's death my child had to have a small procedure; it has broken my heart remembering what I was doing that day and how concerned I was and less than 10 miles away Ellie was murdered by one of her own parents, after 11 months of abuse.
My heart goes out to Ellie's grandad so much - he has lost his wife and Ellie. It's just too terrible to comprehend.
I cannot believe the casualness of Judge Hodges. How has she been able to retire and keep her pension? She in effect sent Ellie to her death.

Tia.

 

[cottonweaver]

Hello all,

I've come late I this thread after another forum I am on mentioning it.

I have found a lot of the details I have read extremely upsetting so have not read the review etc but I have some questions:

Am I right that JG and BB did not live together until after Mrs Justice Hodges exonerated them and basically sealed poor Ellie's fate? And if I am right did Sutton council provide them with their home?
Did BB and JG grown up in the Sutton area, go to school there etc? My reason for asking is that I think I recognise her from the HSBC/benefit fraud picture
Have I misunderstood that BB had family and friends attend the trial in a supportive capacity?

Many years ago when I was a little girl me and my family lived on the same Close where Ellie was murdered; I think possibly that is one of the reasons I am so upset about this case. Also my own child was born on just a few days before Ellie was killed and on the date of Ellie's death my child had to have a small procedure; it has broken my heart remembering what I was doing that day and how concerned I was and less than 10 miles away Ellie was murdered by one of her own parents, after 11 months of abuse.
My heart goes out to Ellie's grandad so much - he has lost his wife and Ellie. It's just too terrible to comprehend.
I cannot believe the casualness of Judge Hodges. How has she been able to retire and keep her pension? She in effect sent Ellie to her death.

Tia.

Welcome Melanie.
Agree with you that this has been a very upsetting case - we have all found it unbelievable.
It's great that you have joined , even now when the case is over, as more and more is still being released PLUS we have some really great "late" posters, so don't let that put you off in any way. ( I'm just catching up after a few days and lots more new stuff for me to read so thanks to everyone on here. )

Am I right that JG and BB did not live together until after Mrs Justice Hodges exonerated them and basically sealed poor Ellie's fate?

-

At the time of Ellie being taken into care they had their own places. She had a flat and he was in some kind of shared house or block. After that, whilst they were fighting the ShakenBSynd conviction until they got the kids back in very late 2012, they appear to have lied. They have moved though,together and before Westover Close they were at another address. I'll see if I can find it.

Did BB and JG grown up in the Sutton area, go to school there etc?

Tortoise has posted links on BB's history, in one of those it says he was born in one area ( Loondon) and then moved as a kid. I can't remember the details I'm afraid, but they are definitely on here. ( the thread pages dated to just after the verdict day)
JG grew up in Surrey ( also in the links related to her father Neal Gray's accounts) , went to that famous London Performing arts school, tried her hand at acting but as it didn't work out she ended up in Graphic Design. Before meeting BB in 2006 she was briefly married to a Brazilian and lived in Brighton. After the divorce she lived back with Mum & Dad before getting her own place to bring up Ellie.

Have I misunderstood that BB had family and friends attend the trial in a supportive capacity?

At the time that BB was on trial recently, the only person that attended in the early days was Tortoise, she mentioned he did have family there at least once.
His friend Ian attended , according to Tortoise.
No one ever mentioned her pals attending, but it's very hard to know if you're in the public gallery. None were mentioned in the press. We know she once had a friend in Worthing as she used that persons address as a fake when she was in her second pregnancy with her youngest daughter, who we are not allowed to name. ( We do know the name, Private Message is best for checking stuff if you're not sure if you can post them openly on the thread)

My reason for asking is that I think I recognise her from the HSBC/benefit fraud picture

Yes, there is also another photo of JG holding Ellie as a newborn in the hospital . As they were sentenced on 21 June, most of the revealing reports came out then and the days following - we linked up every news report Melanie, so I think you'd find them worth reading but it means you will need to scroll back quite a few pages to that date and check out the links that are posted each day onwards. I think you'll find them interesting.
The JG photo looks like it's from a travel card. She worked at HSBC ( Graphics) and then Williams Lea ( based in Canary Wharf) when the fraud conviction was sentenced.

Let us know what you think of the biographical info in the links.

:wagon: and all the other great :newbie: posters that have joined recently.

PS which forum recommended you to pop over to this thread.

 

[cottonweaver]

found a bit more for you Melanie, but I'm afraid I can't find the address before Westover Close even though I know I had it somewhere.
Just a basic timeline. For the biogs prior to 2006, it's best to look at our links.

2005 JG marries the Brazilian.
Early 2006 BB & JG meet. He already has a stack of prison convictions by now.
Ellie born 30.12.06 but they claimed to only be "friends with benefits" and he does some childcare.
15.2.07 BB charged with GBH & cruelty, after E ends up in hospital, after a 2nd night of sleepover at Dad's flat.
16 march – ellie discharged from hospital. Ellie ends up with Grandparents.
March 2009 trial at Croydon CC , BB jailed, 18 months and 1 month concurrent.
ealry November 2008 youngest daughter ( E's sister) conceived. Fraud occurs during this pregnancy. She hides the pregnancy from the authorities
7 september 2009 youngest daughter born.
01/10/09 appeal leads to release of BB from prison. So he served 6 months, Cambridgeshire prison
21 march 2010 youngest daughter- police protection order made - she goes into foster care.
Around July 2010 while, she was working at the Canary Wharf firm, was found to be earning £28,000, but defrauding benefits. Eventually pleaded guilty and in Feb 2011 gets comm service sentence.
By Nov 2011, she/they have decided they want to fight the courts in regards to the previous hearings about their children, which they do, culminating in several hearings and Hogg's exoneration in summer 2012
12/10/12 return of youngest followed by Ellie in November.
19 Oct 2012 appear on This Morning and lots of newspapers. E now at new school avenue park primary sutton
28/10/13 Ellie is murdered after 11 months of hell with this evil pair.



PS If you want to post, I rec you use the remember me button top right when you log in otherwise you might lose your posts as you get timed out very fast

 

[Legally Bland]

Hi Melanie and welcome,

Not sure if they lived together before, but following a court hearing in July 2012 they had no plans to co-habit. This changed by September, in October the younger sibling was placed with them, then Ellie in November.

Quote is from the serious case review, so please skip if you don't want to read. It does mention their unpreparedness and I have no idea how they could determine if it was a stable environment if they weren't living together.

I'm pretty sure it was a housing association property but can't remember the source.

I'm sure others will fill in the gaps and correct me if I'm wrong.

At this point the parents
stated that they had no plans to co-habit. In the course of a subsequent hearing in
September 2012 the remit of the assessment was broadened to include Child D moving to
the parents’ care and the Court approved a new plan of work to form the basis of a second
Letter of Instruction to be issued to S4C.

The draft court order records that “the maternal grandparents agree in principle to [Child D]
returning to the parents’ care.”

After brief introductory visits and with significant supportive input from the foster carer, Child
S was placed with Ms M and Mr F on 08 October 2012. According to S4C Ms M and Mr F
responded well to caring for Child S. Their background report states “In the first phase
observations were made that indicated Mr F and Ms M had sufficient parenting skills to take
on the care of [Child S]. The observations of contact were that Mr F and Ms M sufficiently
understood the needs of [Child S].” They note that in the lead up to Child S being placed,
Mr F took the primary role in introductions as Ms M was on a training course, did not free
herself from work commitments as planned and was evasive when challenged about this
(She was encouraged to specify dates she would not work in order to prioritise the children’s
moves but did not, in the event, do so). Nor was their accommodation ready in the necessary
timescales and Mr F and Ms M had not managed important practicalities such as the
switching on of utilities and the arrival and assembly of a bed.

Link to SCR https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5ILmebheQx3YmhvbjVYOHlpN2M/view

 

[Gigi-G]

Hi guys!! Sorry ive been awol. Doc gave me a couple of injections in my butt.... ive been asleep since i got home 😂

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[Gigi-G]

Hi Melanie. What forum were you on before? And welcome to WS .

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[flutterby]

Welcome Melanie!

Just had a random flashback from court, did anyone else who went encounter the young woman on one of the legal teams (I think pros) who typed with two fingers really loudly? It was quite funny really, she was definitely the loudest person in there but made it hard to hear some of the witnesses

 

[Melanie Regan]

Hello all,

thanks for welcome.

it's a famous parenting site with a logo quite similar to Charlie's Angels.

I'm on my way into work so not much time but having read some of the reports my personal opinion is that she should have received a much higher sentence in terms of time served. I just really do not understand how she could stand-by; usually I am sympathetic to DV but this case has really pushed my boundaries.

The thing that is really clear is that she came from a supportive home. Why the hell couldn't she leave with the girls? To me it seems that he is all about him. What a vile example of a human.

 

[neteditor]

Hi Melanie, welcome to the forum. I'm very new here too. Everyone's welcome is warm and genuine I don't know which site you refer to that you came from, but I am a serial avoider of mummy type forums, too many super perfect alpha mums making me feel inadequate

 

[neteditor]

During the trial, I tried but was unable to get any search results from the local Sutton newspaper (they must have a way of blocking them while a case is sub judice). However I tried again today and hey presto...http://www.suttonguardian.co.uk/search/?page=6&search=ben+butler&sort_by=The articles are interesting enough (including confirmation that BB did represent himself in the OB in one hearing) but more so are the comments at the bottom. These people seem to know him or about him personally.

ETA

http://www.suttonguardian.co.uk/new...injuring_baby_granted_care_of_children_again/

Last comment on that one - Hannah Hillman's email...

 

[Gigi-G]

During the trial, I tried but was unable to get any search results from the local Sutton newspaper (they must have a way of blocking them while a case is sub judice). However I tried again today and hey presto...http://www.suttonguardian.co.uk/search/?page=6&search=ben+butler&sort_by=The articles are interesting enough (including confirmation that BB did represent himself in the OB in one hearing) but more so are the comments at the bottom. These people seem to know him or about him personally.

ETA

http://www.suttonguardian.co.uk/new...injuring_baby_granted_care_of_children_again/

Last comment on that one - Hannah Hillman's email...

Thanks for the links
There's loads on there at different stages of his first encounter from 7 weeks old Ellie to the present day.
Plus this
http://m.suttonguardian.co.uk/news/14570730.display/

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[neteditor]

I'm really looking for his previous offences prior to Ellie's birth. No luck so far I'll keep trying.

 

[Legally Bland]

During the trial, I tried but was unable to get any search results from the local Sutton newspaper (they must have a way of blocking them while a case is sub judice). However I tried again today and hey presto...http://www.suttonguardian.co.uk/search/?page=6&search=ben+butler&sort_by=The articles are interesting enough (including confirmation that BB did represent himself in the OB in one hearing) but more so are the comments at the bottom. These people seem to know him or about him personally.

ETA

http://www.suttonguardian.co.uk/new...injuring_baby_granted_care_of_children_again/

Last comment on that one - Hannah Hillman's email...

BIB

I have no idea what that means.

HH reaching out to BB? Or the media? Or maybe a threat from BB/JG to HH?

Just some irrelevant nonsense?

 

[neteditor]

BIB

I have no idea what that means.

HH reaching out to BB? Or the media? Or maybe a threat from BB/JG to HH?

Just some irrelevant nonsense?

I suspect she was asking the comment posters/readers and/or the newspaper to contact her for the real truth. We could mail her and ask

 

[Gigi-G]

I'm really looking for his previous offences prior to Ellie's birth. No luck so far I'll keep trying.

What about searching thru this... i did aquick one n got earlier dates up..

http://www.cps.gov.uk/london/press_releases/

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[Gigi-G]

BIB

I have no idea what that means.

HH reaching out to BB? Or the media? Or maybe a threat from BB/JG to HH?

Just some irrelevant nonsense?

I think HH was hinting out for ppl to mail her. It wasnt really 'out there' about BB until Ellie's death.

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[Legally Bland]

I suspect she was asking the comment posters/readers and/or the newspaper to contact her for the real truth. We could mail her and ask

Yeah, I think that probably makes most sense.

 

[Gigi-G]

Yeah, I think that probably makes most sense.

I dropped her a quick mail. I dont hold out much hope tho. Shes probably glad hes inside and that part of her life she can close the door on

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