UK - Healthcare worker arrested on suspicion of murder/attempted murder of a number of babies, 2018

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I know it's already been discussed but I wonder if it was some kind of mercy idea in her head. Completely wrong of course. Perhaps she'd seen a baby - in her eyes - suffer a lot, and didn't want more to go through it. I know people with very prem babies who had to have lots of interventions at birth and in the years after and it is very hard, some have lots of surgeries and survival can be touch and go for a long time. Many have life-long effects from all this. Of course, the babies are much-loved little miracles who touch their parents' and others' lives and to take away that chance to survive and thrive is evil... I just can't think of another scenario where someone would do this on purpose. But of course reading these threads I am continually surprised by how low man (and woman!) will go, so who knows what has happened.

I would rather - if there is a better outcome for this case, and let's face it there isn't one really - the poor babies are still gone - that we found out it all happened due to serious failings and nothing more.
 
musicaljoke said:
It may mean that she planned and prepared what was needed to murder the child, but was halted in her tracks. Afterwards, she murdered the child.

This attempted murder of a potential victim suggests to me that there is evidence of intent to murder, and makes me doubt the possibility that the babies died a natural death on her watch.
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In order to make an "attempt" in law it has to be an actual attempt in the true sense of the word. Actually setting out to try to do it. How would she be "halted"? Surely if someone had stopped her because they knew what she was about to do they would have charged her there and then? If circumstances arose that halted her actions then she didn't actually make an attempt.

We really don't know what the evidence as to any intent actually is here, nor what the evidence of the method of murder. There have, after all, been cases of health workers being actually convicted and sentenced for murder yet subsequent evidence proving that no murder even took place, nor even any criminal act.
 
helenff said:
I know it's already been discussed but I wonder if it was some kind of mercy idea in her head. Completely wrong of course. Perhaps she'd seen a baby - in her eyes - suffer a lot, and didn't want more to go through it. I know people with very prem babies who had to have lots of interventions at birth and in the years after and it is very hard, some have lots of surgeries and survival can be touch and go for a long time. Many have life-long effects from all this. Of course, the babies are much-loved little miracles who touch their parents' and others' lives and to take away that chance to survive and thrive is evil... I just can't think of another scenario where someone would do this on purpose. But of course reading these threads I am continually surprised by how low man (and woman!) will go, so who knows what has happened.

I would rather - if there is a better outcome for this case, and let's face it there isn't one really - the poor babies are still gone - that we found out it all happened due to serious failings and nothing more.
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The "mercy" killing idea was discussed, I think, but I don't think anyone really buys it. The reports are that she wanted to be a nurse from a very young age, particularly a children's nurse, I think, and killing patients doesn't really fit with her character, even if she saw it as mercy killing, which I doubt is an opinion she would hold.

Having said that, I suppose if she has any serious mental problem which led her to kill then I suppose some twisted logic of murdering because it's seen as being in the victim's own best interest sort of fits with what people say about her. Bit of a stretch though.
 
Kemug said:
Regarding "type", yes I am with those who say that there's no one type to do something like this. However - one thing we do know (or don't we?) is that, for example, paedophiles often deliberately get themselves into positions of trust working with children, eg teachers, scout masters, baby sitters. In numerous cases, it wasn't the job that came first. So might someone working with babies have a similar story? Just a thought.
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Obviously we don't know but it seems highly unlikely from what we do know of her. I can't think of any cases where people, especially young women with seemingly perfect backgrounds and life opportunities and with no apparent red flags in their history have intentionally got into health care positions where they can murder children.

The drive of a paedophile (who are almost exclusively male) is not comparable to anything in LL's case, as far as I can see.
 
Marantz4250b said:
In order to make an "attempt" in law it has to be an actual attempt in the true sense of the word. Actually setting out to try to do it. How would she be "halted"? Surely if someone had stopped her because they knew what she was about to do they would have charged her there and then? If circumstances arose that halted her actions then she didn't actually make an attempt.
.
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Not necessarily. We don't know what evidence there is, so it's mere speculation at this point. But there are attempts that may not have been immediate connected to her, or possibly not discovered until the investigation. For example, settings may have been changed on life sustaining equipment intended for a baby. Equipment may have been tempered with and initially assumed to be malfunctioning or defective.
 
musicaljoke said:
Not necessarily. We don't know what evidence there is, so it's mere speculation at this point. But there are attempts that may not have been immediate connected to her, or possibly not discovered until the investigation. For example, settings may have been changed on life sustaining equipment intended for a baby. Equipment may have been tempered with and initially assumed to be malfunctioning or defective.
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Yes, I see what you're getting at. Good points.
 
XHIBIT: Liverpool

Case started according to that, Court 52. I don't think this actually means much as I think it's just a formal starting of proceedings and I'm not sure if she actually needs to attend for this.

I think I heard a date of 19th February mentioned as being the point that she will formally enter a plea.
 
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That's very interesting - I can see her as a victim of bullying. If I had been shown a photo of her, without knowing anything at all about her, and given a choice between "murderer" and "victim of bullying", I would certainly have plumped for the latter.
 
HollyHunter9 said:
I quite believe that. There is a very highly toxic and bullying culture within the NHS (personal experience). The last time I mentioned this my comments were deleted so I'm attaching a media article from this year which further highlights it...

Civility must survive for NHS to thrive
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I fervently hope that this doesn't turn into a case of nervous but caring young woman who's bullied into confessing, or not being able to defend herself properly, which only comes to light after she's spent a couple of decades rotting in prison.

If indeed she has been a victim of bullying then having to sit on remand for months on top of that must be absolute mental torture for her. Perhaps this gives an insight into her remand being for her own protection from a perspective of possible self harm?
 
Is she taking the fall for someone else ? Did someone see the writing on the wall and set this young girl up? She seems so nieve. Possibly would be easy to set her up. This is just a thought I had. MOO
 
Marg from Oz said:
Is she taking the fall for someone else ? Did someone see the writing on the wall and set this young girl up? She seems so nieve. Possibly would be easy to set her up. This is just a thought I had. MOO
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If she's innocent than I think it's unlikely that she's actually been "set up". It's a monumentally serious thing to fit someone up for murder. Not easy either.

To repeat the phrase "if she's innocent" (because she may not be) then it's more likely that she is a victim of circumstances. There may have been rank incompetence which was a major contributing factor to the deaths (indeed, we know that hospital management had previously been hauled over the coals for the crap state the unit was in) and she has been singled out because of whatever circumstantial evidence may be pointing in her general direction and no one wants to land themselves in the mire. If there is circumstantial evidence which could point to a few people then she would seem like a likely candidate to take the fall as she seems rather quiet and reserved and may have a hard time speaking up for herself.

The comment made by her barrister at her Crown Court appearance which was along the lines of she wants a resolution to this as soon as possible is something which I still find concerning. It suggests that she may intend to enter a guilty plea. If she does then I'd hope that it's because she is genuinely guilty rather than she's had a total psychological collapse and has just given up. To repeat a previous post of mine, if she's been subject to bullying (and she really doesn't seem the type who could endure that for very long at all) and has now had two and a half years of a being a police suspect in a murder case, including three arrests, has had hers and her parents house searched and has now been charged and is being held on remand then I can't say I'd be particularly surprised if she'd just decided to give up entirely. If she's not guilty I cannot imagine what absolute torture it must be for her.

On the other hand she may be a multiple baby murderer and fully deserves to be there!
 
Complete speculation, imo.
Just a thought regarding the (millions?) of pounds LL apparently helped raise for the unit, and wondering if she was proprietary about it, maybe thinking the money was ''wasted'' on certain babies?
 
I am also a neonatal nurse in the uk, and just can’t get my head around this case. I have read a trial may take 20 weeks. Is this because of the sheer amount of evidence they need to get across? Seems like a long time, haven’t followed many cases but most have only been a few weeks.
 
Kitkat28 said:
What do we know of her character though? Nothing. It’s still pure speculation based entirely on the way she looks.
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It's not. We know something of her character but I agree that you can't judge someone's character in any depth from a few pictures. We know quite a bit about her. Everyone who the press has spoken to who knows her has basically repeated the same thing - that she's a lovely, hard working person who's totally committed to being a children's nurse and has wanted to do it since she was young. There is even someone I quoted from the site which can't be mentioned here who knows her and has personally watched her grow up who has said that all her colleagues were shocked when she was arrested. That poster even said that the reason that the press haven't dug up any dirt on her (and let's not forget that they've had two and a half years to do so) is that there isn't any to find because she's just a quiet girl getting on with life.

None of the photos of her the press have published appear to be selfies so it seems unlikely that she is overly vain. Nor does she seem to be overtly trying to bring attention to herself in any of them. The photos were all taken by other people in ordinary social situations which means she has a circle of friends who want to take photos of her and spend time with her and that she does "normal" things with other people. She's quiet but far from a loner. Her friends say that she'd usually be the first home from a night out to study so she's probably not a big drinker. People have said that she's a bit socially awkward but that's nothing particularly surprising or too unusual.

So, yes, I think it's fair to say that someone like that is extremely unlikely to be the type to be hiding some sort of God complex and who thinks they have the right to decide whether a baby lives or dies. Obviously, there is a great deal we don't know about her and I'm sure that a lot will come out at the trial (unless she pleads guilty in which case I doubt we'll learn much more). Perhaps she has some deeply ingrained mental health issues which go back years? Perhaps something has arisen recently to destabilise her - it was suggested that she had been the victim of bullying which may be of some significance, especially if she's a bit socially awkward anyway. I'm no psychologist but she seems to be an unlikely candidate to be harbouring some heinous personality disorder.

If nothing really strange comes out about her at the trial and that what we know about her already is a fairly accurate summary of her as a person and she's convicted then I think she will be one of the most unusual and strange serial killers in history. I don't think I can bring to mind a single serial murderer who when convicted wasn't found to have something deeply disturbing in their past and mental health. "Normal" people don't go about murdering babies and everything that has been published about LL has "normal" written all over it.
 
Lucy Letby - accused baby killer This is a link from a couple of years ago from someone who actually works at that hospital. It's a few posts down by "Supernurse". So, another apparently first-hand account by someone who is saying the same as everyone else - that no one believes she's guilty of anything at all.

It really does make you wonder what on Earth the police and CPS think they have on her.
 
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