GUILTY UK - Helen Bailey, 51, Royston, 11 April 2016 #11

[BatFace]

I had a look SweetCinnamon - can't find that quote. Villain is an understatement!!
I did see the IS's proud purchase of his MG purchased after dear Diane died. He is so disgusting.

It's a jokey comment under one of his profile pictures (the one with him and Helen on the stairs). Prophetic though, and he rather creepily replies something like "Ah, but what are my motives?"


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[Tortoise]

I wish someone would explain what was meant by the c£40k that wasn't "claimed" by Stewart from Diane's estate.
I don't understand how an asset would need to be "claimed".

I think he is even more crafty than we give him credit for. He may have deliberately left some money untouched so that he could say (if ever the finger was pointed at him) 'look, I didn't even use the money'. Similar perhaps to how he tried to use the inheritance tax insurance - look I would have waited until after the wedding.

I really think he has huge issues around money. That sounds daft given what we know about his financial motive for the murder, but I think there is another element to it, from what I've seen of him. He seems to have a need to not only acquire money but to deny that it is important to him. And that's not just seen from the perspective of him denying he had a motive to murder, it's about him in general.

That's why I said a few days ago that I think when he was young he may have had to deny wanting something for himself. Possibly he suffered a narcissistic injury. [note here I am not blaming his mum! he had a dad too, and most probably a personality disorder.]

This is what Wiki has to say about narcissistic rage and injury -

Narcissistic injury occurs when a narcissist feels that their hidden, 'true self' has been revealed. This may be the case when the narcissist has a "fall from grace", such as when their hidden behaviors or motivations are revealed, or when their importance is brought into question. Narcissistic injury is a cause of distress and can lead to dysregulation of behaviors as in narcissistic rage.

Narcissistic rage occurs on a continuum from instances of aloofness, and expression of mild irritation or annoyance, to serious outbursts, including violent attacks and murder.

I noted already his response to being accused of killing Helen for her money. The immediate snarl, when he was to all intents ignoring the officer's questions. He couldn't avoid responding, even if it was a non-verbal response. An example of body language letting him down.

I don't think his entire evidence was necessarily about defending himself against the charges. He boasted that he went to the jewellers with Helen with a budget of £20k in mind for the ring. And hid that he had asked Helen to embarrass herself and ask for a discount on the £14k price tag. All meant to make people believe he doesn't need money.

It's his Achilles heel, and probably not only to do with money, but intrinsic inadequacy.

 

[Joely 123]

What if Diane was wanting to divorce him - he didn't work, he stood to lose the income she generated plus her pension and insurance policy. He enjoyed his lazy, seemingly good for nothing lifestyle and had no inclination of finding himself a job after so many years. All this would have changed if Diane had divorced him. By killing her, it solved all those problems. He then meets Helen, is attracted by her wealth and starts living a privileged lifestyle far greater than he ever dreamt of. Somewhere along the way, Helen is starting to realise his true colours and he sees that the relationship might not last and all that he stands to lose. He has no intention of giving this up. He has got away with it once, so easily, he kills again...
We'll never find out what his actual motive was of course, but this is one theory.

I agree that IS ​enjoyed his lazy, seeming good for nothing lifestyle and had no inclination of finding himself a job after so many years.
But I can't work out the reasons of his murder (s) besides power, control, greed, inability to love, envy of Helen and possibly Diane whilst he begrudges their success, popularity, warmth and all that their beauty does to his shrivelling Ego.
You are right faybradshaw - perhaps we shall only always be able to theorise. But we can't help trying to do so.

 

[Cherwell]

By the same token the police are not going to admit they knew nothing about it until a nosey neighbour weighed in. I remember how things panned out and I believe the neighbour in this instance. They knew nothing about that well.

I'm not so sure. It was only a matter of time till they moved the cars out (which they hadn't done on the earlier search). The inspection cover would have been easily visible once the car was gone.

 

[SweetCinnamon]

I was thinking the same Tortoise as my father suffered 'Narcissistic Rage'. However only his very close family bore the brunt, Mum and I. To many he is charming. I believe Dad suffered a traumatic incident when he was put down and ridiculed at work. He had a traumatic upbringing in WW2.


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[Interested Bystander]

I thought the same about the high blood pressure in pregnancy too, InterestedBystander- it's quite common really.


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Yes the high blood pressure and seizures are not uncommon with eclampsia. I have a friend who was incredibly ill and we thought we were going to lose both of them. Thankfully all was well in the end. The risk of developing epilepsy subsequently is thought to be very, very small, although it is known.

 

[BatFace]

I think he is even more crafty than we give him credit for. He may have deliberately left some money untouched so that he could say (if ever the finger was pointed at him) 'look, I didn't even use the money'. Similar perhaps to how he tried to use the inheritance tax insurance - look I would have waited until after the wedding.

I really think he has huge issues around money. That sounds daft given what we know about his financial motive for the murder, but I think there is another element to it, from what I've seen of him. He seems to have a need to not only acquire money but to deny that it is important to him. And that's not just seen from the perspective of him denying he had a motive to murder, it's about him in general.

That's why I said a few days ago that I think when he was young he may have had to deny wanting something for himself. Possibly he suffered a narcissistic injury. [note here I am not blaming his mum! he had a dad too, and most probably a personality disorder.]

This is what Wiki has to say about narcissistic rage and injury -



I noted already his response to being accused of killing Helen for her money. The immediate snarl, when he was to all intents ignoring the officer's questions. He couldn't avoid responding, even if it was a non-verbal response. An example of body language letting him down.

I don't think his entire evidence was necessarily about defending himself against the charges. He boasted that he went to the jewellers with Helen with a budget of £20k in mind for the ring. And hid that he had asked Helen to embarrass herself and ask for a discount on the £14k price tag. All meant to make people believe he doesn't need money.

It's his Achilles heel, and probably not only to do with money, but intrinsic inadequacy.

That sounds bang on to me, Tortoise.


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[neteditor]

I'm not so sure. It was only a matter of time till they moved the cars out (which they hadn't done on the earlier search). The inspection cover would have been easily visible once the car was gone.

It wasn't easily visible though. It was covered with a fitted plank of wood painted to match the garage floor.

 

[Joely 123]

There never was a note, yet I seem to recall a mention of Jamie taking a photo of it. Perhaps I'm imagining that, or it was mentioned but never happened.

Jamie took a photo of a note, BlueMosaic. IS said that note was one he was leaving for Helen at Royston, whilst he was in Broadstairs, in case she returned home in him absence.
Many WS thought that this may have been a 'practice' note for the one he was going to write to suggest Helen had CHOSEN to leave her home.
The note he spoke of to everyone for months, supposed to be written by Helen wasn't seen by anyone. He suggested he may have taken it to the tip. (Ludicrous - as others have said, who would ever throw away such an important communication from a departing loved one).

 

[BatFace]

It wasn't easily visible though. It was covered with a fitted plank of wood painted to match the garage floor.

Even a plod would spot that though.


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[Rayemonde]

Jamie took a photo of a note, BlueMosaic. IS said that note was one he was leaving for Helen at Royston, whilst he was in Broadstairs, in case she returned home in him absence.
Many WS thought that this may have been a 'practice' note for the one he was going to write to suggest Helen had CHOSEN to leave her home.
The note he spoke of to everyone for months, supposed to be written by Helen wasn't seen by anyone. He suggested he may have taken it to the tip. (Ludicrous - as others have said, who would ever throw away such an important communication from a departing loved one).

Plus he went to the tip before he was supposed to have found the note...

 

[Joely 123]

I've just gone back and read from the beginning of the thread (originally started half-way through) and this really leapt out at me from the Sun report:

A throwaway remark from a neighbour’s daughter, visiting home from Australia, led officers to contact Mr Shannon. Cops had been confused when she asked if they had looked in “the well”. Mr Shannon said: “The police phoned me and I explained over the phone where it was, just inside the door of the garage.

They thought the cesspit had been pumped out — because that’s what Ian told them.

“If they’d asked any of us, we could have told them about it. The case could have been sorted three months earlier.”...

Does anyone else think that the onus was on Shannon to phone the police and say, "Look, do you know about the second cesspit?" How could the police be expected to ask the previous owner about something they didn't know existed? Ditto the neighbour, who could have phoned the police at any time and told them about it.

The neighbour went into Helen's garden to tell the Police about the ancient well/cesspit arrangement. The Police were cautious in her approach as it was a 'Crime Scene' and didn't wish her to be there. But she managed to convey her important message, and the Police made contact with the previous owner of Hartwell for full details on this new information.

 

[Tortoise]

It wasn't easily visible though. It was covered with a fitted plank of wood painted to match the garage floor.

They definitely discovered the hatch on Monday 11th July. That's the date the dog was there and taken to the hatch and the room above.

 

[neteditor]

Plus he went to the tip before he was supposed to have found the note...

We speculated that the second trip, which the pros said was to check the duvet was gone, was actually an excuse to say he'd dumped the note then.

 

[Cherwell]

It wasn't easily visible though. It was covered with a fitted plank of wood painted to match the garage floor.

I haven't seen a photo of it in situ, but I have seen similar arrangements and would be astonished if the outline wasn't clear.

 

[neteditor]

They definitely discovered the hatch on Monday 11th July. That's the date the dog was there and taken to the hatch and the room above.

I thought the dogs were much earlier? Was there a second dog visit I've missed?

 

[Tortoise]

The neighbour went into Helen's garden to tell the Police about the ancient well/cesspit arrangement. The Police were cautious in her approach as it was a 'Crime Scene' and didn't wish her to be there. But she managed to convey her important message, and the Police made contact with the previous owner of Hartwell for full details on this new information.

I think speaking to the previous owner was more intelligence gathering than anything - once they heard about the joke passed on from owner to owner that it was a good place to hide a body.

 

[Tortoise]

I thought the dogs were much earlier? Was there a second dog visit I've missed?

Yes, the first dog visit was in April when they drained the septic tank in the garden and the dog reacted inside the house. Then the full search on 11th July had dogs again.

 

[Joely 123]

It's a jokey comment under one of his profile pictures (the one with him and Helen on the stairs). Prophetic though, and he rather creepily replies something like "Ah, but what are my motives?"

Ah! thank Batface. I was looking on FB, imagining someone had posted since he was proven GUILTY (there has been nothing on his page since June 2016 - not surprisingly).
That is indeed a cocky prophetic throw a way from him. He just can't help himself - can he?

I am wondering if he is under surveillance (suicide watch) at present. If he can watch TV and see all the media around him? Does that make him feel as 'famous' as Helen or disgusted and self-harming.

 

[pinklilies]

In fairness to him I would be a bit put out if an acquantance of mine used my name and description (there or abouts) to describe her evil kidnapper / murderer. Some people believe mad things in the face of overwhelming evidence: holocaust deniers, there was no moon landing, Bush was behind 9/11, the royal family are shape shifting lizards etc.... As mad as it may seem, some people may believe IS and his ramblings

I too feel for JC. He's 77 years of age and I can totally understand if he wants it made very clear that he had absolutely nothing to do with Helens murder except have a resemblance to the figments of IS imagination. IS has despicably embroiled several innocent people into his crime.