GUILTY UK - Helen Bailey, 51, Royston, 11 April 2016 #3

[neteditor]

Those cadaver dogs are AMAZING.

I love them so much. Indicating in the corner of the floor above, 3 months after the fact. Just wow.

That possibly suggests to me that that is where he killed her. Far easier to get her from there to the cesspit entrance than dragging her across the garden?

 

[Matthewitt]

@Matt

Hope you don't mind questions!

Were family members in attendance today, of either side? Stewart, Bailey, Lem etc? ( Appreciate it's very hard to recognise. )

Does IS look a great deal older than his previous photos? Has he lost weight?

I didn't see any Family, His sons were not there I know that. He looks like he has lost some weight from the pictures i've seen prior, He has big bags under his eyes I guess from lack of sleep and stress? His stubble was more dark unlike most of the pictures I have seen of him. I guess he had a shave more recently.

 

[Alyce]

The jury can only convict if they are sure beyond a reasonable doubt of guilt.

All the defence has to do is introduce a reasonable doubt. It doesn't have to be something they prove outright it just has to be enough to make the jury unsure.

Yes, that was what I meant. The Defence dont have the burden of proof on their shoulders.
But I wonder - if they dont bring up Joe and Nick - will it look strange, being as they have been introduced into the narrative by ISs own statement.

 

[Matthewitt]

As for Helen's Family I haven't seen pictures of them before. Sorry.

 

[Alyce]

That possibly suggests to me that that is where he killed her. Far easier to get her from there to the cesspit entrance than dragging her across the garden?

The room above the garage was being used as storage. Police evidence said it was full of boxes.

 

[KarenUK]

If it's an overflow for the main tank , does that mean that if the main tank was emptied more regularly than required it would never fill up enough to flow into the overflow tank(meaning the overflow one would never need to be emptied so no need for a professional to ever see that one again?)

Just going by the tanks at my parents house, the pipe in the septic tank is quite low and the over flow to the cesspit sits about halfway - it is huge (I saw it when they had the lids off both for maintenance, its not the kind of place I'd look in normally!). They have it emptied from the main septic tank every four / five years as there isnt access to the main cesspit opening, though that is obviously not the case at Royston as its in a garage. Also shower and bath water can soak away from their tank into the field at the back of the house, not sure if this is the case at this house, that much water may cause flood or subsidence problems - basically, and in the words of Manuel - I know nooooothing Mr Fawlty

 

[Cherwell]

The jury can only convict if they are sure beyond a reasonable doubt of guilt.

All the defence has to do is introduce a reasonable doubt. It doesn't have to be something they prove outright it just has to be enough to make the jury unsure.

And it's worth stressing that it's beyond reasonable doubt - not beyond any doubt.

 

[neteditor]

Yes, that was what I meant. The Defence dont have the burden of proof on their shoulders.
But I wonder - if they dont bring up Joe and Nick - will it look strange, being as they have been introduced into the narrative by ISs own statement.

I *think* that if they are going to rely on Nick and Joe, they will either have to produce them as witnesses OR they will have to put IS on the stand to testify because otherwise all evidence about them to date is hearsay, wouldn't you think?

 

[neteditor]

The room above the garage was being used as storage. Police evidence said it was full of boxes.

How would that preclude it from being a possible scene of crime?

 

[Cherwell]

I *think* that if they are going to rely on Nick and Joe, they will either have to produce them as witnesses OR they will have to put IS on the stand to testify because otherwise all evidence about them to date is hearsay, wouldn't you think?

Yes, it is all hearsay so far. It would be interesting to know the context of these names in the diary. There may well be dozens of other names mentioned there, so one wonders why these two have been picked out.

 

[Zab]

How would that preclude it from being a possible scene of crime?

Didn't Helen ask IS to take boxes to the dump the day she disappeared/was murdered?

 

[Cherwell]

How would that preclude it from being a possible scene of crime?

If he'd attacked her in a store room I would expect there to have been some signs of a struggle on her body. Smothering on a soft surface like a bed or a couch while she was resting seems more likely.

 

[Alyce]

How would that preclude it from being a possible scene of crime?

From the evidence, Helen put up zero resistance to whatever caused her death ( most likely suffocation but not proven ).

Therefore, most likely to be heavily asleep/unconscious due to the zopiclone. So, either fell asleep on the sofa, or took herself off to bed ( which she had done the previous week, when she slept for 5 hours ).

In order to kill her in the garage room, IS would have had to persuade her - as soon as he saw her getting drowsy - to go over to the garage room and help him search for something in the storage ? And then trust ( hope ? ) that she would fall unconscious in that room.
Not impossible of course, but imo, less likely.

 

[Alyce]

Didn't Helen ask IS to take boxes to the dump the day she disappeared/was murdered?

IS said that Helen loaded his car with the boxes. Interesting indeed.

 

[Squamous]

IS said that Helen loaded his car with the boxes. Interesting indeed.

True. He did say she put the duvet in too though.

 

[neteditor]

From the evidence, Helen put up zero resistance to whatever caused her death ( most likely suffocation but not proven ).

Therefore, most likely to be heavily asleep/unconscious due to the zopiclone. So, either fell asleep on the sofa, or took herself off to bed ( which she had done the previous week, when she slept for 5 hours ).

In order to kill her in the garage room, IS would have had to persuade her - as soon as he saw her getting drowsy - to go over to the garage room and help him search for something in the storage ? And then trust ( hope ? ) that she would fall unconscious in that room.
Not impossible of course, but imo, less likely.

I see what you're saying (and others unquoted above too) but those are just best guesses by the pathologist not definites. They are going by the fact there were no obvious bone injury. Strangulation leaves damage to the hyoid bone, so they could discount that. They have no clue exactly how she was killed only that however it was done it didn't leave any obvious damage to a corpse which has been decomposing for three months. She was identified by dental records, which suggests to me there wasn't a lot left to be going on. (Sorry, graphic ugh). For example that lock hold they suggested wouldn't that be done standing up? There's no evidence she was killed when she was drowsy, it's just one possible explanation for why she might not have fought back.

I've possibly missed some evidence that would make me contradict this thinking please let me know if you think of anything I've not taken into account

 

[Tortoise]

And the solution of Joe and Nick was probably born this weekend, on a clifftop in Broadstairs, as he chuckled into his ice cream cone and then packed up the router...

[FONT=&quot]“I came back to work on May 13.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“He called me on that day, he said he was now back in Hertfordshire, he said he came very close to killing himself while he was there but his father had been very supportive and he was now back tidying up personal affairs - he said he was feeling better in himself."

- Sarah Touhey, community psychiatric nurse.

http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/new...murder-trial-week-12503618?service=responsive
[/FONT]

 

[Interested Bystander]

From the evidence, Helen put up zero resistance to whatever caused her death ( most likely suffocation but not proven ).

Therefore, most likely to be heavily asleep/unconscious due to the zopiclone. So, either fell asleep on the sofa, or took herself off to bed ( which she had done the previous week, when she slept for 5 hours ).

In order to kill her in the garage room, IS would have had to persuade her - as soon as he saw her getting drowsy - to go over to the garage room and help him search for something in the storage ? And then trust ( hope ? ) that she would fall unconscious in that room.
Not impossible of course, but imo, less likely.

Just a thought, maybe he did place the duvet there just in case one of the boys came home unexpectedly. As I have explained before and I think you all know a dead body will likely leak urine and possible faeces due to the sphincters relaxing. This would be quite normal if a body was dragged, carried or disturbed enough. If he used the duvet to "transport" her she would have left normal scent ++. The duvet may have soaked up any wetness but maybe a little could have soaked through to the floor in the upstairs room of the garage. All complete guesswork, of course. What I don't know is how long human scent remains detectable to the dogs.

 

[Zab]

Just a thought, maybe he did place the duvet there just in case one of the boys came home unexpectedly. As I have explained before and I think you all know a dead body will likely leak urine and possible faeces due to the sphincters relaxing. This would be quite normal if a body was dragged, carried or disturbed enough. If he used the duvet to "transport" her she would have left normal scent ++. The duvet may have soaked up any wetness but maybe a little could have soaked through to the floor in the upstairs room of the garage. All complete guesswork, of course. What I don't know is how long human scent remains detectable to the dogs.

I am no expert, but I do know it could be years for a speck of blood on the floor or wall.

 

[Tortoise]

Just a thought, maybe he did place the duvet there just in case one of the boys came home unexpectedly. As I have explained before and I think you all know a dead body will likely leak urine and possible faeces due to the sphincters relaxing. This would be quite normal if a body was dragged, carried or disturbed enough. If he used the duvet to "transport" her she would have left normal scent ++. The duvet may have soaked up any wetness but maybe a little could have soaked through to the floor in the upstairs room of the garage. All complete guesswork, of course. What I don't know is how long human scent remains detectable to the dogs.

I'm really surprised the dog didn't react to the boot of his car. Maybe he had a plastic liner in it. I remember him saying he carefully folded it so it didn't undo, or wtte.