GUILTY UK - Helen Bailey, 51, Royston, 11 April 2016 #3

[Alyce]

I see what you're saying (and others unquoted above too) but those are just best guesses by the pathologist not definites. They are going by the fact there were no obvious bone injury. Strangulation leaves damage to the hyoid bone, so they could discount that. They have no clue exactly how she was killed only that however it was done it didn't leave any obvious damage to a corpse which has been decomposing for three months. She was identified by dental records, which suggests to me there wasn't a lot left to be going on. (Sorry, graphic ugh). For example that lock hold they suggested wouldn't that be done standing up? There's no evidence she was killed when she was drowsy, it's just one possible explanation for why she might not have fought back.

I've possibly missed some evidence that would make me contradict this thinking please let me know if you think of anything I've not taken into account

Agree. As the pathologist said, they are his best estimates, based on all the evidence he had to work with.
His final ruling was COD undetermined.
Re the dental records. I took that ( and of course this may just be me ) as a belt and braces approach - because they did in fact have a whole body to work with, not just remains ( in the most basic sense of the word ).

I seem to remember ( would have to check back ) that there was mention of the fact that the cess pit location, had actually helped to delay decomposition, relative to if the body had been placed elsewhere.

For myself I can't picture a scenario that has zero resistance from the victim, if they are not deeply unconscious. The body will react instinctively in fight / resistance mode to any form of attack, even if the person is slightly drowsy.
If they are completely awake, then I would expect some mark of fight back.

 

[Interested Bystander]

I am no expert, but I do know it could be years for a speck of blood on the floor or wall.

These dogs are good so if something was detected I am surprised that swabs or sample of the flooring were not taken or maybe they were and we have not yet heard.

 

[Alyce]

I'm really surprised the dog didn't react to the boot of his car. Maybe he had a plastic liner in it. I remember him saying he carefully folded it so it didn't undo, or wtte.

Yes, such meticulous concern about folding up a duvet which was going to be chucked into a skip at the dump.

 

[Squamous]

I see what you're saying (and others unquoted above too) but those are just best guesses by the pathologist not definites. They are going by the fact there were no obvious bone injury. Strangulation leaves damage to the hyoid bone, so they could discount that. They have no clue exactly how she was killed only that however it was done it didn't leave any obvious damage to a corpse which has been decomposing for three months. She was identified by dental records, which suggests to me there wasn't a lot left to be going on. (Sorry, graphic ugh). For example that lock hold they suggested wouldn't that be done standing up? There's no evidence she was killed when she was drowsy, it's just one possible explanation for why she might not have fought back.

I've possibly missed some evidence that would make me contradict this thinking please let me know if you think of anything I've not taken into account

I'll try and find a link but the pathologist said that basically her body was well preserved, even down to being able to identify no bruising iirc. The anaerobic cesspit meant she didn't decompose as she would in water or air. The dental records id was done, I presume, because obviously it wouldn't be appropriate for any family member to do it visually (yet another vile aspect of this crime, I presume her family could have no chances at all of saying a last goodbye to her).

ETA, evidence from day 2. Too much to C&P, the pathologist is early on, from about 10.30am

http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-news/helen-bailey-murder-trial-day-12435557

 

[Zab]

These dogs are good so if something was detected I am surprised that swabs or sample of the flooring were not taken or maybe they were and we have not yet heard.

But even if they did they cannot prove when this possible blood was left?

 

[cottonweaver]

The Find HB page

As it was referred to again today by witness Latchford and as I only glanced at that last year, in the "missing" phase, does anyone know whether there were any comments/Likes/Thankyous on there by the sons and IS during the 3 months.

I see that IS and Jamie went and waved them off on one of the walks & paid for the leaflets but was there any other way that the Stewart family were out searching and helping?

 

[Interested Bystander]

I'm really surprised the dog didn't react to the boot of his car. Maybe he had a plastic liner in it. I remember him saying he carefully folded it so it didn't undo, or wtte.

Very good point. I suppose he could have used plastic bags to protect the boot. We will never know.

 

[cottonweaver]

I'll try and find a link but the pathologist said that basically her body was well preserved, even down to being able to identify no bruising iirc. The anaerobic cesspit meant she didn't decompose as she would in water or air. The dental records id was done, I presume, because obviously it wouldn't be appropriate for any family member to do it visually (yet another vile aspect of this crime, I presume her family could have no chances at all of saying a last goodbye to her).

Obviously it could never happen but I think he should have been made to identify her or at least been forced to look at the photos since all the jury and related professionals have had to.


here's that link to opinion by top UK forensic pathologist where he says even the mildest victim would have put up resistance to a smothering attack if they were concious
http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-news/helen-bailey-murder-trial-day-12435557

Unrelated - do members reckon he did some murder research on his phone? I just don't believe something this long in the planning is without a digital footprint. ( there's so much web info out there related to the drug's use in murders & assaults, for example as well as other aspects, septic decommissioning etc etc.....)

 

[Alyce]

The Find HB page

As it was referred to again today by witness Latchford and as I only glanced at that last year, in the "missing" phase, does anyone know whether there were any comments/Likes/Thankyous on there by the sons and IS during the 3 months.

I see that IS and Jamie went and waved them off on one of the walks & paid for the commenting but was there any other way that the Stewart family were out searching and helping?

IS did post on there, he questioned who had set the page up !!

Fairly certain neither of the sons posted or liked any comments on there.

 

[Interested Bystander]

But even if they did they cannot prove when this possible blood was left?

There was not blood as far as we know. I am sure forensics are so good these days they would have some idea whether it was very recent or very old.

 

[Squamous]

Thanks for all the updates today Alyce

 

[Alyce]

There was not blood as far as we know. I am sure forensics are so good these days they would have some idea whether it was very recent or very old.

Agree. Wasn't it the Joanna Yates case where they were able to date marks on the door, to within 24 hours.

 

[Rayemonde]

Apologies if this has been written about or posted on here previously.

Extract from Helen's blog 'Planet Grief' - dated 23rd February 2016:

Things have been difficult here since just after Christmas, and it continues to be an anxious and challenging time. I’m sorry for my vagueness. I’m not keeping anything secret, it’s just that I can’t yet write about what is happening because I don’t know the outcome, and I can’t bring myself to put fingers to keyboard. In my mind, it’s all too frightening at the moment.

This is the link: http://planetgrief.com/2016/02/23/stop-gap/

Helen might well have been referring to IS's illness and her fears over that. I prefer to think that it wasn't that she had any forebodings about his true nature.

She may have been referring to her concerns about her own health. The confusion and sleepiness she was experiencing may have convinced her that something was very wrong with her.

Quizzed on names in diaries

Simon Russell Flint, defending Stewart, said that in Mr Sinfield’s diaries, there’s references to people called Joe and Nick. He asks Mr Patrick if he had any idea about who this might be referring to. “Absolutely none at all”, Mr Patrick answers.

http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-news/helen-bailey-murder-trial-more-12512651

Helen may have mentioned Joe and Nick to IS, and when he was sitting in jail racking his brains for a story to get him off the hook he may have remembered them and decided to use their names. We don't know for sure that he got the names from the diaries.

Smell from cess pit could have masked scent from body, jury hears

The next witness is PC Solehurst, who is a dog handler. PC Solehurst said he searched the Royston house on July 11. He said his dog didn’t indicate any interest in the garage ground floor, but on the first floor in the corner. At this stage, jurors were told that Helen Bailey’s body was in the cess pit in the garage. He said: “If a body is fresh and covered with excrement, that could mask the scent coming out. “If the cess pit cover was airtight this would have masked the scent.” That’s the end of PC Solehurst’s evidence. That’s the end of evidence for today. The court will resume on Monday, at 10am.

http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-news/helen-bailey-murder-trial-more-12512651


my comment - the dog indicated on the first floor in the corner.
I wonder if IS originally left the duvet up here. ( The first floor of the garage was full of boxes and used as storage ).
But then changed his mind, as there was a risk of discovery by other members of the household ?

A person has to be dead for a couple of hours at least before a cadaver dog will be able to pick up the scent.

 

[BatFace]

IS did post on there, he questioned who had set the page up !!

Fairly certain neither of the sons posted or liked any comments on there.

The arrogance of the man is astounding.

 

[cottonweaver]

@Rayemonde

Helen may have mentioned Joe and Nick to IS, and when he was sitting in jail racking his brains for a story to get him off the hook he may have remembered them and decided to use their names. We don't know for sure that he got the names from the diaries.

That's true but someone still has to find out if they are in the diaries , and get that info to the Defence.

edit . This is the fullest description i've seen on the Nick & Joe fable , unless someone has better

“There was a conversation linked to Helen’s disappearance. He said two men called Nick and Joe might have been involved.

“He made me aware there were these two guys, he said they’d been to the house in a couple of accounts when me and my brother would have been at work.

“He said when they were coming they wanted to find out from Helen about some paperwork.

“Apparently they came to find this paperwork, Helen claimed to know nothing of it, they seemed to be fairly sure she would have known something of it.

“Apparently on one occasion when they arrived, having known dad had had an operation, they decided to punch him in the stomach at least once.

“Helen claimed to know nothing of it, but may have got a bit anxious about it all.

“Dad said one time that the two men were saying about the paperwork, so Helen asked them to look into the study.

“I don’t think he said directly what this had to do with Helen’s disappearance.

“Nothing was said about Helen’s phone. The way dad was warning me of these two guys, I could tell by the way he was telling me, facial expressions and so on, I could tell this was no joke and it was a serious matter to be aware of.

“He explained one of the men had tattoos and another man was bald. He said roughly what they looked like.

“He let me know that the men had given him a phone and were instructing him to do things via the phone.

“I never saw this phone, and this was the first time any of this was ever mentioned.”

Oliver's ^
I was checking to see if there is any ref. here to N&J, as associates of John Sinfield. Maybe it's in another's testimony or just IS's? comments to police?

http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-news/helen-bailey-murder-trial-week-12452783

 

[Alyce]

A person has to be dead for a couple of hours at least before a cadaver dog will be able to pick up the scent.

RSBM

which is why I thought it was the duvet he put up there - but then removed a few hours later, when he had second thoughts and took it to the dump.

 

[faybradshaw]

I see what you're saying (and others unquoted above too) but those are just best guesses by the pathologist not definites. They are going by the fact there were no obvious bone injury. Strangulation leaves damage to the hyoid bone, so they could discount that. They have no clue exactly how she was killed only that however it was done it didn't leave any obvious damage to a corpse which has been decomposing for three months. She was identified by dental records, which suggests to me there wasn't a lot left to be going on. (Sorry, graphic ugh). For example that lock hold they suggested wouldn't that be done standing up? There's no evidence she was killed when she was drowsy, it's just one possible explanation for why she might not have fought back.

I've possibly missed some evidence that would make me contradict this thinking please let me know if you think of anything I've not taken into account

Its just a film, but if you've watched the final scene in One Flew over the Cuckoos Nest, where Bromden notices McMurphy has a vacant stare on his face and suddenly realizes that he's been lobotomized. He gives him a long hug before stating "I'm not going to let you live like this." and smothers him to death with a pillow. Even in his lobotomized, semi conscious state his body tries to fight back this attack, as Helen would have in her drug induced sleep...

 

[ColourPurple]

Just a little recap of the Joe & Nick fairytale as reported by IS's son OS

**************
Police posed a number of questions to Oliver in December 2016. Some weeks before this, Oliver had been to visit Stewart.

“There was a conversation linked to Helen’s disappearance. He said two men called Nick and Joe might have been involved.“He made me aware there were these two guys, he said they’d been to the house in a couple of accounts when me and my brother would have been at work.“He said when they were coming they wanted to find out from Helen about some paperwork.

“Apparently they came to find this paperwork, Helen claimed to know nothing of it, they seemed to be fairly sure she would have known something of it.“Apparently on one occasion when they arrived, having known dad had had an operation, they decided to punch him in the stomach at least once.“Helen claimed to know nothing of it, but may have got a bit anxious about it all.

“Dad said one time that the two men were saying about the paperwork, so Helen asked them to look into the study.“I don’t think he said directly what this had to do with Helen’s disappearance.

“Nothing was said about Helen’s phone. The way dad was warning me of these two guys, I could tell by the way he was telling me, facial expressions and so on, I could tell this was no joke and it was a serious matter to be aware of.
“He explained one of the men had tattoos and another man was bald. He said roughly what they looked like.

“He let me know that the men had given him a phone and were instructing him to do things via the phone. “I never saw this phone, and this was the first time any of this was ever mentioned.”“Dad said the two men spoke to him via the mobile phone they had given to him.“He had never mentioned any of this before now (December 2016)

On re-examination from the prosecution, Oliver said there was no direct discussion with his dad on how the two men - Nick and Joe - killed Helen Bailey. Oliver said he was then told one of the men had been ‘dealt with’. He reiterated that up until this point, his dad hadn’t said anything about these two men. “I discussed this with Jamie, but Jamie hasn’t seen dad at a visit yet. I’ve been visiting dad every Sunday, but the first time he mentioned the two men was in December 2016.

***********************
http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-news/helen-bailey-murder-trial-week-12452783

 

[ColourPurple]

A person has to be dead for a couple of hours at least before a cadaver dog will be able to pick up the scent.

I can remember (from days following the Madeleine case) that being up for debate and that it could be a lot sooner than that and could be within minutes.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Just a little recap of the Joe & Nick fairytale as reported by IS's son OS

**************
Police posed a number of questions to Oliver in December 2016. Some weeks before this, Oliver had been to visit Stewart.

“There was a conversation linked to Helen’s disappearance. He said two men called Nick and Joe might have been involved.“He made me aware there were these two guys, he said they’d been to the house in a couple of accounts when me and my brother would have been at work.“He said when they were coming they wanted to find out from Helen about some paperwork.

“Apparently they came to find this paperwork, Helen claimed to know nothing of it, they seemed to be fairly sure she would have known something of it.“Apparently on one occasion when they arrived, having known dad had had an operation, they decided to punch him in the stomach at least once.“Helen claimed to know nothing of it, but may have got a bit anxious about it all.

“Dad said one time that the two men were saying about the paperwork, so Helen asked them to look into the study.“I don’t think he said directly what this had to do with Helen’s disappearance.

“Nothing was said about Helen’s phone. The way dad was warning me of these two guys, I could tell by the way he was telling me, facial expressions and so on, I could tell this was no joke and it was a serious matter to be aware of.
“He explained one of the men had tattoos and another man was bald. He said roughly what they looked like.

“He let me know that the men had given him a phone and were instructing him to do things via the phone. “I never saw this phone, and this was the first time any of this was ever mentioned.”“Dad said the two men spoke to him via the mobile phone they had given to him.“He had never mentioned any of this before now (December 2016)

On re-examination from the prosecution, Oliver said there was no direct discussion with his dad on how the two men - Nick and Joe - killed Helen Bailey. Oliver said he was then told one of the men had been ‘dealt with’. He reiterated that up until this point, his dad hadn’t said anything about these two men. “I discussed this with Jamie, but Jamie hasn’t seen dad at a visit yet. I’ve been visiting dad every Sunday, but the first time he mentioned the two men was in December 2016.

***********************
http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-news/helen-bailey-murder-trial-week-12452783

I am unsure why Oliver didn't tell dad to go to the police or why he didn't go himself in order to protect his dad. Maybe he told Oliver not to do anything. I can't wait for IS to take the stand. I just hope he does.