GUILTY UK - Helen Bailey, 51, Royston, 11 April 2016 #6

[neteditor]

I don't recall the forensics saying this? The dogs alerted to cadaver on trousers in the main bedroom, the kitchen bench and a bucket of cleaning materials, so a deceased person.

I wonder why Nick & Joe left a pair of trousers contaminated with cadaver in IS's bedroom

They definitely said they couldn't exclude the possibility that they were alive when put into the pit.

ETA:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-suffocated-neck-lock-ian-stewart-court-trial

 

[cheeseman]

Do you think maybe he intended to only place Helen and Boris in the cesspit temporarily? He might have hoped to be able to retrieve them later, when the heat had died down but found that he couldn't retrieve the bodies (maybe they'd moved). He desperately tried to find another way to get them out, hence lifting the other lid in the garden. Then gave up and decided to bugger off to Spain until everyone had given up on finding Helen.

Otherwise it's inevitable that her body would be found when the tank was emptied again or new owners moved into the property.

 

[jessie]

They definitely said they couldn't exclude the possibility that they were alive when put into the pit.

So what did the dog alert to?

 

[snoopydog]

Do you think maybe he intended to only place Helen and Boris in the cesspit temporarily? He might have hoped to be able to retrieve them later, when the heat had died down but found that he couldn't retrieve the bodies (maybe they'd moved). He desperately tried to find another way to get them out, hence lifting the other lid in the garden. Then gave up and decided to bugger off to Spain until everyone had given up on finding Helen.

Otherwise it's inevitable that her body would be found when the tank was emptied again or new owners moved into the property.

I think he was expecting them to decompose completely and never be found


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[Cherwell]

Why would anyone think a cesspit would be a good place to hide a body if it was " emptied" periodically?

I suspect he thought that decomposition would be rapid, and all traces would be removed for him after a little while

 

[ColourPurple]

9:04 IS said Helen rang the solicitors from the home landline

Excellent thanks

So if we look back to when there was first a change in normal or planned activity, it was after breakfast when somebody cancelled Helen's planned solicitor appointment and (if we believe IS) Boris also didn't get his normal after-breakfast walk with IS and Helen.

Between 9.10am and 9.28am, there are other searches on Helen’s iPad relating to the dog and Brocket Hall.

Stewart said Boris was usually walked by both him and Helen after breakfast.

“On this particular morning, I’m 99 per cent sure Boris didn’t get a walk.

“I was in bed until a bit later, I came back downstairs.

 

[DollyDiamond]

I don't recall the forensics saying this? The dogs alerted to cadaver on trousers in the main bedroom, the kitchen bench and a bucket of cleaning materials, so a deceased person.

I wonder why Nick & Joe left a pair of trousers contaminated with cadaver in IS's bedroom

Plumage remembers right, newspaper headlines at that point in proceedings were all about the fact a forensics expert said it was possible Helen was alive when dumped in the cesspit. Yes, the cadaver dog alerting in several places within the house is powerful evidence that contradicts the Nick & Joe story (as if further evidence were needed!) I'm looking forward to the moment the prosecution confirms there is no evidence of any kind whatsoever to support the existence of Nick and Joe. He'd have been better off calling them Ant and Dec - at least they actually exist!

 

[Squamous]

Looking at the images released, there was no way he was expecting to get them back out. It was a drop of several feet through a narrow awkward opening.

Helen's body was well preserved and I think the implication was that she was very recently dead or possibly just unconscious when she was put in. That evidence was before the dog chap's evidence.

 

[Interested Bystander]

So what did the dog alert to?

I recall reading the dogs were search and rescue dogs. That is quite different from cadaver dogs. They would detect human scent but not necessarily death. However, I cannot remember whether there were two dog searches. Anyone recall? Maybe if there was a second search, cadaver dogs were used.

 

[ColourPurple]

I don't recall the forensics saying this? The dogs alerted to cadaver on trousers in the main bedroom, the kitchen bench and a bucket of cleaning materials, so a deceased person.

I wonder why Nick & Joe left a pair of trousers contaminated with cadaver in IS's bedroom

Yes we still don't know whose trousers they were (was it in the utility room rather than bedroom?) but nice of Nick & Joe to mop up on their visits

 

[Squamous]

He said in evidence there was a day nick and joe came over and asked for the car keys and went into the garage to get something. He'll have been implying it was then.




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He said today that it was either that occasion or while he was in Spain.

 

[plumage]

she may have been dead but she was fresh when she went in there and close to the 11th April- definitely not put in there June- and most likely not brought as a long-dead cadaver later.

do cadaver dogs respond to dead dogs?

 

[cheeseman]

J & O maybe?

Aw.

I'm guessing this may be referring to JS and Helen's brother who have been reported to always be chatting outside court during breaks. I'm also conjecturing that they are referring to Trimmer not IS!

 

[jessie]

They definitely said they couldn't exclude the possibility that they were alive when put into the pit.

ETA:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-suffocated-neck-lock-ian-stewart-court-trial

Ah yes, thanks for the link but that was in X by the Defence. Couldn't exclude the possibility is forensicspeak, as it is up to the police to prove otherwise. A debatable point.

 

[DollyDiamond]

I recall reading the dogs were search and rescue dogs. That is quite different from cadaver dogs. They would detect human scent but not necessarily death. However, I cannot remember whether there were two dog searches. Anyone recall? Maybe if there was a second search, cadaver dogs were used.

I believe a specific cadaver dog picked up 'the scent of death' on a bench in the kitchen, on a pair of trousers and around cleaning materials. Better Websleuthers than I will recall the exact details! I believe it was these findings by the cadaver dog that dramatically upgraded the police investigation to a major crime, and made IS the prime suspect, just days later.

This is only my unresearched recollection - I'm sure others can give better detail and contradict me if necessary!

 

[Alyce]

Excellent thanks

So if we look back to when there was first a change in normal or planned activity, it was after breakfast when somebody cancelled Helen's planned solicitor appointment and (if we believe IS) Boris also didn't get his normal after-breakfast walk with IS and Helen.

I do wish, once again, that we had full details re the chat between Helen and Tracey. Would give some indication of whether it was Helen or not.

Although, the back and forth chat with Stuart Kye - 9.50 am for 30 - 40 minutes - I do think that was Helen. Simply because I can't see IS taking the trouble to continue chat for so long with him.

 

[ZaZara]

Do you think maybe he intended to only place Helen and Boris in the cesspit temporarily? He might have hoped to be able to retrieve them later, when the heat had died down but found that he couldn't retrieve the bodies (maybe they'd moved). He desperately tried to find another way to get them out, hence lifting the other lid in the garden. Then gave up and decided to bugger off to Spain until everyone had given up on finding Helen.

Otherwise it's inevitable that her body would be found when the tank was emptied again or new owners moved into the property.

Temporarily? Probably not. Just look at the difficulty the Police had to get the bodies out of the pit. It took their experts the best of 2 days if I remember well.
Lifting the lid of the septic tank does not makes sense, no body can move trough the pipe, except perhaps that of a mouse ~ but it would depend on the inlet if that was even remotely possible.
Besides, the searches were in full swing when the lid of the septic tank appeared to have been moved.

Just tell the new owners that the septic tank is the main tank and they need to have that one emptied. Or perhaps the house would be connected to to the sewage in a few years time.

IMHO the cesspit was a safer location to hide the bodies than it might appear.

 

[snoopydog]

Excellent thanks

So if we look back to when there was first a change in normal or planned activity, it was after breakfast when somebody cancelled Helen's planned solicitor appointment and (if we believe IS) Boris also didn't get his normal after-breakfast walk with IS and Helen.

And if Helen wasn't taken till later in the afternoon when did the dog get a walk? His story for the 11th is all over the place....


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[Squamous]

I recall reading the dogs were search and rescue dogs. That is quite different from cadaver dogs. They would detect human scent but not necessarily death. However, I cannot remember whether there were two dog searches. Anyone recall? Maybe if there was a second search, cadaver dogs were used.

They were "victim recovery" dogs, I'm pretty sure, ie cadaver dogs. There wasn't any need to look for an alive Helen with dogs, surely?

I imagine any dead mammal will cause them to indicate but I don't know that. In the Shannon Matthews thing the other night someone said the police had taken their floorboards up because a dog had indicated about what turned out to be a dead mouse or something. Obviously there's every chance that bit was pure fiction though!

 

[plumage]

A call to the solicitors was made from the home phone in the morning to tell them Helen wasn't well and couldn't make her appointment.I can't find the timing but I thought I read it was around 9am, which would be before her computer activity which means it could have been him calling before the drugs had taken effect, knowing that would take effect soon. Alternatively I guess Helen could have changed her mind about the sale and cancelled and that triggered IS into action and he decided to go finalise the sale without her anyway.

“That was the first and only time I met Helen Bailey. My records showed that Helen was due to come into the office to see me on April 11, 2016, but my office was called and we heard that she would not be coming in because she was unwell".

After which she apparently popped out in the car to get some milk?