GUILTY UK - Helen Bailey, 51, Royston, 11 April 2016 #8

[Really?]

I'm pretty sure Dolly said she thought he was innocent.


*waits for clout around the ear* :laughing:

illowfight2:

 

[Annad]

I do hope we do get Tara's live reports. It would be very useful to know how the counsel frame the evidence especially after such a long trial.

Could we contact Tara either by tweet or email to see if she is planning to cover the summing up stages?

 

[Tortoise]

Great, glad to hear we can probably continue to expect reports from Tara.

 

[LozDa]

RSBM

I'd hesitate to contradict any bishop, however, this is the point where I respectfully beg to differ. Christians are under no obligation to forgive anyone. The example that you mention is not so much about forgiveness as it is about delegation, and that is a totally different matter.

I first noticed this as a child in school, and this alleged heresy got me in a lot of trouble, but I never wavered. Jesus on the cross does not forgive, he requests his Father to do so, and the outcome is unclear.

My family knows my last wishes: should I perish for instance in a terrorist attack I do not want to be remembered in the same service as the murderers, nor do I want any mention of the terrorist attack being the price we pay for our sins. (Happened in Germany, where the surviving families of the downed MH17 were forced to listen to this during the official memorial service. Happened in The Netherlands where the man who drove his car into the crowd on Queen's Day was labelled a 'victim' like the innocent people whose lives he took.)

For Jamie and Oliver, it must be an almost impossible task to separate the father they love from the father who most likely will be convicted for a terrible murder.
I hope they will find all the support that they need and that no one forces them to forgive.

I quote psychologist Dr Harriet Lerner:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/30/...m-sorry.html?smid=tw-nythealth&smtyp=cur&_r=2

“It’s not our place to tell anyone to forgive or not to forgive,” Dr. Lerner said in an interview. She disputes popular thinking that failing to forgive is bad for one’s health and can lead to a life mired in bitterness and hate.

“There is no one path to healing,” she said. “There are many roads to letting go of corrosive emotions without forgiving, like therapy, meditation, medication, even swimming.” Hardest of all, Dr. Lerner said, is to forgive a nonapologetic offender (...)

Beautifully written and I can entirely see your point. If I tell my mother and father not to mourn my passing, it doesn't mean they can't. It simply means it was my request that they don't.

I think Oliver & Jamie have a hard road ahead to accept what's happened and who was responsible. I wish them the best of company and help throughout.

 

[jenspired]

There is a case coming up around May, probably at Cambridge Crown Court, which, horrifically, also involves a man accused of killing his wife (and smothering with a pillow I have heard). The family lived near my older son in Cambridge. I fear it will be labelled an "honour" killing as the couple were from Pakistan. Honour comes into it no more than with IS.

What has come through to me on this board, along with the inspiration, thought and attention to detail, is the wish for good and love to prevail over the sordid IS. I love Helen's tips for writers, and hope she continues to inspire young (and older) women.

In her tips, she says to keep a notebook to put down ideas, and refers to always having one in her back pocket. That probably stopped after JS died?

I'd be interested to read more of her tips if you have any links?


Oh what a tangled web we weave

 

[Tortoise]

I'd love to see the Not Guilty version for this.

A man who murdered his partner for her money has today been found not guilty.

There you go.

[Anyone new to the thread please note this is not true.]

 

[Alyce]

I'd be interested to read more of her tips if you have any links?


Oh what a tangled web we weave

I was just looking at that page earlier, checking re books and such

here's the link

http://www.helenbaileybooks.com/writingstuff.php

 

[icemaiden65]

CW,
This is only my view and my understanding having researched a lot about the meaning of forgiveness. It is often a misused word.
You can (sometimes) forgive a person. However this is dependent on many factors, not least whether they recognise and feel a deep sense of remorse about what they have done. And also obviously dependent on the nature of what they have done.
Many people confuse forgiveness with having an understanding of what has happened and why (the "why" part could be the fact that the person is just plain evil). Once understanding is achieved, then one can begin to come to terms with what has happened and learn to live with it and move on with their life, albeitwith the pain they carry as part of who they now are. obviously great trauma changes a person but need not destroy their life.
One is not obliged to forgive those who show no remorse for their bad deeds and/or heinous crimes. That is my understanding and experience anyway.

Oh Michelle, wise words - my heart does break for you.

To the end of my days I'll never forgive the piece of filth who murdered my Aunt. But, I don't hate him as that's self-destructive. I know this from the nights I spent crying in our garden, barefoot and scarcely decent in my nightwear, raging at the sky and wanting him to just be 'dead and gone' in as vile a way as he killed her. All I wanted back then (almost eight years ago now) was half an hour in a room with him, helpless and begging for mercy, and me with a whisky bottle, beating him around the face until every single bone in his face was broken. As he did to Joan Charlton, Hull, my beautiful 85 year-old Aunt. She died, most likely begging for mercy, wrapped in a bamboo wall hanging which he set alight.

To be honest, am surprised my OH didn't have me committed when I look back - almost lost the plot totally. Thankfully I eventually moved on from that dark place but will still never, ever forgive him. He showed no remorse whatsoever and I suspect that even now he's not at all sorry as I truly believe he is devoid of any human feelings and conscience. His only regret would have been getting caught I fear.

Therefore - I also believe that IS deserves neither forgiveness or understanding. Sometimes there is evil walking on this earth of ours that is beyond comprehension.

He is a psychopath who should be locked up and the key thrown away.

 

[icemaiden65]

The Judge said the new evidence was "extracts from a book". I'm thinking several or more paragraphs from perhaps Life after death and a dog named Boris which may have a bearing on what IS has used in his defence. It would have to be more important than just more evidence of his embroidering of the facts of their courtship though to warrant this? Maybe he's plagerised parts of it

Spent ages doing searches on the Kindle earlier using every term I could think of. Nothing jumped out at me - apart from a thumping headache due to the intense concentration, sigh..

 

[flightpath]

So HB always kept a notebook she wrote in? How interesting, maybe this is the book mentioned by the Judge then?

 

[jenspired]

Helen's mother's evidence mentioned Helen not recognising her own hands (I think this was allegedly related to the zopicloning):

Mrs Bailey said: “Helen said when she was sitting at the computer she couldn’t recognise her own hands; that was worrying."

I noticed this is something Helen mentions herself in her grief book:

"This was no upside-down world; this was as if I was living on an entirely different planet, Planet Grief, because nothing was recognisable to me, not even the sight of my own hands on the computer’s keyboard. I was wearing a wedding ring, but I had no husband"

(I'm on my mobile so not sure how to add proper quotes)

But as it's not clear on the timing, I don't know whether this suggests that the hand none-recognition has nothing to do with zopiclone and is a symptom of grief, or if IS was drugging her for several years...

I don't really know what I mean - just desperate to join in!

Oh what a tangled web we weave

 

[Alyce]

The Crown Court

at St Albans
Daily List for Thursday 16 February 2017 at BRICKET ROAD ST ALBANS


Court 1 - sitting at 10:00 AM

HIS HONOUR JUDGE BRIGHT QC

Trial (Part Heard)
T20167121 STEWART Ian
41E12190616
PAPER FILE




this - below - is for someone else, but may mean an early finish for the trial tomorrow ?
NOT BEFORE 03:30 pm
Custody Time Limit application

 

[michelle230]

48 - 0

At the last count. Dolly and Michelle which way are you voting lol?

I`m never one to rock the boat so.....can I take the number 35 please (and hope that`ll give me an allocated seat tomorrow!)

 

[peter010101]

I
1. to convince the jury he is innocent.
2. in the event he can't convince them of his innocence (he knows he can't) he just wants to enjoy the intriguing and fascinating feelings the drama of the trial allow him to feel. He feels alive and satiated.

... or of course to convince a couple of them that there's a chance that he's innocent.

 

[michelle230]

Oh Michelle, wise words - my heart does break for you.

To the end of my days I'll never forgive the piece of filth who murdered my Aunt. But, I don't hate him as that's self-destructive. I know this from the nights I spent crying in our garden, barefoot and scarcely decent in my nightwear, raging at the sky and wanting him to just be 'dead and gone' in as vile a way as he killed her. All I wanted back then (almost eight years ago now) was half an hour in a room with him, helpless and begging for mercy, and me with a whisky bottle, beating him around the face until every single bone in his face was broken. As he did to Joan Charlton, Hull, my beautiful 85 year-old Aunt. She died, most likely begging for mercy, wrapped in a bamboo wall hanging which he set alight.

To be honest, am surprised my OH didn't have me committed when I look back - almost lost the plot totally. Thankfully I eventually moved on from that dark place but will still never, ever forgive him. He showed no remorse whatsoever and I suspect that even now he's not at all sorry as I truly believe he is devoid of any human feelings and conscience. His only regret would have been getting caught I fear.

Therefore - I also believe that IS deserves neither forgiveness or understanding. Sometimes there is evil walking on this earth of ours that is beyond comprehension.

He is a psychopath who should be locked up and the key thrown away.

Thank you Icemaiden - I don`t think I explained very well but - well - I don`t forgive but I have come to terms with it (to a point where I can live a life). You can`t even begin to forgive those who have no remorse or who carry on with the same behaviour e.g. abuse.
It`s wonderful that you have come out of the darkness in the same way, carrying pain inside you , but in spite of that managing to live with that new part of who you now are.
Life is beautiful but sometimes we need to find great strength inside us to overcome the hurdles!
Michelle xx

 

[icemaiden65]

Thank you Icemaiden - I don`t think I explained very well but - well - I don`t forgive but I have come to terms with it (to a point where I can live a life). You can`t even begin to forgive those who have no remorse or who carry on with the same behaviour e.g. abuse.
It`s wonderful that you have come out of the darkness in the same way, carrying pain inside you , but in spite of that managing to live with that new part of who you now are.
Life is beautiful but sometimes we need to find great strength inside us to overcome the hurdles!
Michelle xx

Thank you Michelle - you summed it up perfectly! Life has to go on, even it f it's never the same again. You're doing OK kiddo! xx

 

[icemaiden65]

... or of course to convince a couple of them that there's a chance that he's innocent.

And THAT final sentence is what scares the pants off me!

 

[michelle230]

He can't do a good job because he's just mimicking. Such raw emotions in extremis, as in this case, are nuanced and raw and easily identified as being genuine distress or otherwise.

In this example, as evidenced by Michelle, he thinks that two ornaments with sentimental value would have enough emotional currency to warrant a tear but fails to appreciate that most jurors and observers would question why he choose this one recollection above more distressing recollections to cry. He cannot discern all of the things that humans find emotional because he's pathologically incapable and over a prolonged period he will get caught out as evidenced by Michelle.

RB - this reminded me of something I read in a book - it was about a top Nazi who was imprisoned for 20 years at the end of the war (Hess?). He knew he was hated and vilified by millions but he couldn`t understand why.
He spent his 20 years in prison studying psychology trying to work out what he had done that was so abhorrent to others and he learnt about "empathy". The interesting thing is - he finally understood what empathy was. He got it. He understood the concept. But he could still not * feel * it.

 

[michelle230]

You and CW are really starting to get the hang of this profiling lark!

It's true though, I'm sure he's given it consideration for after he's sent down so he can carry on playing the victim and manipulating any remaining doubts they have. (Not that they will!).

RB,I would have absolutely loved your character analysis of Jennie Gray, the girlfriend who stood by Ben Butler when he murdered their daughter. She was intelligent, educated and came from a solid loving background. She sat and stroked his face and hands and wiped away his tears as the Judge read out his sentencing report, after handing him a 23 year prison sentence for murdering little Ellie.

 

[michelle230]

You and CW are really starting to get the hang of this profiling lark!

It's true though, I'm sure he's given it consideration for after he's sent down so he can carry on playing the victim and manipulating any remaining doubts they have. (Not that they will!).

Tortoise, trust me - they are not under his spell.