GUILTY UK - Helen Bailey, 51, Royston, 11 April 2016 #9

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Hi all! I have been lurking for some time. Must say you are all such bright and witty posters. I feel like I know many of you personally. Having followed many trials, this one, particularly the defendants story about Nick and Joe is the most outrageous I have ever read. For a person to be so grandiose to think others would believe such hogwash is quite frankly insulting. I get a visceral reaction when I read the things he says. The only mystery here is how he fooled a woman like Helen. He is really a vile creature. He will be found guilty, no doubt.


Anyway, a few threads back a couple of you suggested a thread here that was a "must read" and I forgot the name of the victim. I think it was Susan? Could someone remind me of the name?
 
Hi all! I have been lurking for some time. Must say you are all such bright and witty posters. I feel like I know many of you personally. Having followed many trials, this one, particularly the defendants story about Nick and Joe is the most outrageous I have ever read. For a person to be so grandiose to think others would believe such hogwash is quite frankly insulting. I get a visceral reaction when I read the things he says. The only mystery here is how he fooled a woman like Helen. He is really a vile creature. He will be found guilty, no doubt.


Anyway, a few threads back a couple of you suggested a thread here that was a "must read" and I forgot the name of the victim. I think it was Susan? Could someone remind me of the name?

Susan McLean, a worthwhile read.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
It wouldn't really be the best use of the limited resources of the RSPCA to prosecute IS regardless of the outcome of this trial. If he is convicted of murder then he's going to jail for a long time anyway. If he gets off with murder then how can they actually prove he did kill Boris? It would be a huge waste of their time either way quite frankly.

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Mr Russell Flint's new defence 'If, that is what happened, how does that make her death unlawful? Nobody would have killed her, murdered her. It would have been a terrible accident' is extraordinary, as many have commented. Do the lawyers present expect the judge to point out to the jury that they are not being asked to consider this?

Also, mrjitty, please could you explain what you said about the prosecution having to prove IS is guilty to the evidential standard but not beyond all reasonable doubt - I thought it was the latter. What exactly does the evidential standard mean? I thought that was for civil cases. But as will be apparent, I'm not a lawyer.

Sure. Let's walk thru it.

We have to differentiate between proving facts at trial (evidence) and proving guilt beyond reasonable doubt (BARD).

Thanks to the presumption of innocence, the burden of proof is on the prosecution.

First up this means the prosecution must prove each and every element of the offence ... Mens Rea (jntention) plus Actus Reus (physical elements)

This is much more nuts and bolts than you may realise.

For example the prosecution must prove someone has been killed unlawfully (i.e. Helen as stated in the indictment). This is not to BARD standard. Rather the jury must ask itself what facts it regards as established. Though this question is not at issue at trial, it must nevertheless be shown.

So the prosecution may prove this point by evidence from the coroner and other witnesses. For example consider the following facts which were surely proved at trial:

A dead body was recovered + from the cess pit + it was identified as Helen Bailey + her dog was also there + the lid was on the cess pit etc etc

We don't apply BARD to these individually.

Once it accepts the above, the jury is invited to infer (or conclude) a further fact... namely that this was an unlawful killing

This inference is clearly established IMO. The fact that the body was hidden implies murder. Furthermore, it is the defences own case that Helen was murdered. So now we have evidence plus inferences. The Jury just asks itself what has been proven.

So next question - was there intention to murder? In my view this question is not at issue in the trial. Circumstances imply murder. Yes, theoretically Helen could have died by accident and IS hid her in a panic but the defence did not introduce any evidence to that end. So IMO this idea should be dismissed. It is speculation not a real possibility.

So really the only issue at trial is was the murder committed by IS?

If we discount Nick and Joe, then obviously IS is the only other person who could have done it. And he also lied with two different versions.

All of the above is facts plus inferences.

Now with all of that said, the Jury must stand back and consider the BARD standard. having regard to all the facts established and inferences drawn.

In light of the evidence, is there any reasonable possibility IS did not murder Helen?

In my day this was described like a stranded rope. Each strand is a fact. An individual strand may break but the rope holds.

Now where jury analysis frequently goes wrong is the defence invites the jury to nitpick facts in isolation which is what defence counsel is doing.

"We can't rule out that Helen died by accident!"

This statement is logically true, but it is not a reasonable possibility having regard to all the evidence.

But if you can trick a jury into speculating about individual facts - it gets tough for the prosecution!
 
Thanks very much, mrjitty, for spelling this out so clearly.
I was wrong to say in my original query that you had said IS only had to be proved guilty to the evidential standard (as Cherwell immediately pointed out) - it was the individual strand of murder vs accidental killing you were talking about.

What makes this defence picking at individual strands so maddening is that IS has created several narratives, and the confusion this creates about the significance of any one piece of evidence is multiplied. Like a lot of other people here I was (naively?) shocked by the ridiculous unfairness and inaccuracy of a lot of the statements in Mr RF's speech.

But the judge's opening statement gets us all back to the two possibilities, IS or Nick and Joe, the overall narrative created by the prosecution, which IS agreed. Let's hope his further summing up on Monday will cement that.
 
Thank you Alyce, and welcome LeeAnn (apologies)

I use Tapatalk and have not found a search facility.

I find the main site almost impossible to use on my ancient laptop, so switched to iPad which was no better, is it just me?


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It's not just you, but the more cases you start to follow and see go into different sections of the forum, the more the endless threads and areas make sense and are therefore navigable. I still have to subscribe to individual threads via the website rather than Tapatalk, but if you subscribe to boards (such as UK missing etc) then you start to see individual threads being linked that you can subscribe via Tapatalk.

It is tough going at first and I'm sure most people initially binge through lots and lots of cases and also subscribe to lots of threads, but then eventually you naturally end up following one or two cases in great detail and maybe glance over a few others before deleting subscriptions like crazy after realising you're only interested in those one or two right now. Otherwise it's overload!

Obviously, that's all from my experience, but I've heard others mention similar saying they've been busy on another case etc. So I should think it's a similar path for many :)

The first time you follow a major case and see a single thread be broken off into sub-threads and sections, that's tough to get used to! I am still not entirely sure about that for coherency reasons, but understand why it's done.

Stick with it; it will become clearer.


I have just typed all that and then realised you are talking about the site being unresponsive, not hard to navigate. But I'm posting my response anyway because 1) whatevs and 2) that's how I roll.

:laughing:
 
Let's look at this big fat strand then.

“The case for the defendant on the other hand, was that two men called Joe and Nick were responsible for the murder and disposal of Helen Bailey’s body, and that he was too frightened by the men to tell the police. “

So scared was he that Helen's and his sons' lives were in danger, that he did nothing to find out who they were or what they wanted, and left his sons alone in the house and Helen to her fate, while he had a holiday. Because he couldn't get a refund.
 
It's not just you, but the more cases you start to follow and see go into different sections of the forum, the more the endless threads and areas make sense and are therefore navigable. I still have to subscribe to individual threads via the website rather than Tapatalk, but if you subscribe to boards (such as UK missing etc) then you start to see individual threads being linked that you can subscribe via Tapatalk.

It is tough going at first and I'm sure most people initially binge through lots and lots of cases and also subscribe to lots of threads, but then eventually you naturally end up following one or two cases in great detail and maybe glance over a few others before deleting subscriptions like crazy after realising you're only interested in those one or two right now. Otherwise it's overload!

Obviously, that's all from my experience, but I've heard others mention similar saying they've been busy on another case etc. So I should think it's a similar path for many :)

The first time you follow a major case and see a single thread be broken off into sub-threads and sections, that's tough to get used to! I am still not entirely sure about that for coherency reasons, but understand why it's done.

Stick with it; it will become clearer.


I have just typed all that and then realised you are talking about the site being unresponsive, not hard to navigate. But I'm posting my response anyway because 1) whatevs and 2) that's how I roll.

:laughing:

I find it's easier to go on google if there's a case I'm interested in. Type in Websleuths and the victims name and it brings up the thread. I don't know my way around this place still.
 
Let's look at this big fat strand then.



So scared was he that Helen's and his sons' lives were in danger, that he did nothing to find out who they were or what they wanted, and left his sons alone in the house and Helen to her fate, while he had a holiday. Because he couldn't get a refund.

Tortoise, you are CLEARLY distorting facts. He went on holiday because Nick told him he should.

Duh. [emoji849]
 
Tortoise, you are CLEARLY distorting facts. He went on holiday because Nick told him he should.

Duh. [emoji849]

Doh! Was that before he tried to get a refund or after? Surely he wouldn't dare disobey Nick. He was such a brute.
 
I hope they release the video of his arrest. Probably won't though. We'll just get a 30 second clip of the silent interview.
 
Whatever you do J, shut that GARAGE DOOR!!
 
I hope they release the video of his arrest. Probably won't though. We'll just get a 30 second clip of the silent interview.

Remember the Sadie Hartley case and the released footage of one of the murderer's 6 am arrest , in bed, being captured and then broadcast as the police gathered in her bedroom. That's what IS should have had!
 
I'm sure Boris will be taken into account as a aggravating factor in the sentencing.

I'm still hoping that, as he's found guilty, a voice will shout from the public gallery "I did not break that ornament Mr Ian!".
 
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