GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #14

[Robin Hood]

rupertevelyn Rupert Evelyn
Asked whether death "must have" occurred in 12 hours after lunch Delaney says "death occurred after eating that last meal" #joyeates
6 minutes ago

 

[Firefly75]

The main problem I have with that turn of events is that why would JY open the door in that situation?

Although I can't really think of ANY plausible situation where JY would feel safe opening the door, but would then be strangled within minutes.

It really is the most bizarre case.

I've been wondering about that for ages, too. To be honest, I can't see her (or anyone else of her age, intelligence and common sense) opening the door to someone they don't know with a kitchen knife. No matter how scared, if you open the door with a knife, unless you are a knife fighter, it's unlikely you'll be able to use it properly in self-defence. It turns you into a danger to yourself because chances are the knife will be used against you, or you'll hurt yourself trying to use it. Miss Y. wasn't in the habit of engaging in knife fighting, as far as we know.

Given that she was uncomfortable about being on her own (which I can totally understand), why would she have opened the door to someone she didn't know (or only may have only known by sight, given that they were neighbours) after dark, after seeing him through the kitchen window (if that's what happened first), when she was on her own and not overly relaxed about it? The only thing I can come up with (meaning, the only reason *I* would open the door in such circumstances) would be if a neighbour I knew by sight indicated (say, through the kitchen window) that he'd taken a parcel in for me (it wouldn't have occurred to me to look for a Royal Mail notification card etc., especially if he'd surprised me) or that he'd brought my cat, or some such likely thing that neighbours might do.

I am so sad about the whole thing. A life taken so unneccessarily and in such a horrible way. My heart goes out to her family and friends.

 

[veggiefan]

Didn't think of that ,could be but why all that black in the bathroom and on the walls, what was going on there.

Quite probably nothing was going on. Police usually have to coat surfaces with fingerprinting powder in order to see if there are any viable prints. If there are, they then check to see if the prints are those of GR and JY.

 

[kINGFISHER]

Don't know but I imagine that tiled surfaces must be pretty good for getting prints from so they concentrated hard in there. There was quite a bit of black powder on the kitchen cupboards aswell.

I don't think they could have found his fingerprints in the flat - they would have said by now if they had

Also, I imagine it would be pretty hard to reclothe a body after having washed it. I'm sure that comment refers to the pathologist

It makes more sense as you say that it was the pathologist, unless she was placed in there fully dressed, but very unlikely. But you never know with case what you might hear.

 

[Clio]

So the pathologist has "previous experience of at least 1 case of strangulation and "admits he did not detect a break to JY's Superior Thyroid Horn. It was found to be broken at a 3rd post mortem"

Not a stangulation expert then.....

 

[veggiefan]

So the pathologist has "previous experience of at least 1 case of strangulation and "admits he did not detect a break to JY's Superior Thyroid Horn. It was found to be broken at a 3rd post mortem"

Not a stangulation expert then.....

The defence are clearly following the path of undermining the prosecution's expert witnesses, no doubt with a view to showing the plausibility of some totally different scenario that they will present in due course.

 

[stmarysmead]

I was thinking about the case whilst I was trying to get to sleep last night.

The defence are at some point going to HAVE to set out a plausible explanation as to the events of that night and why he strangled her.

It has been indicated that the defence will say that they first saw each other through the kitchen window. It would then seem that JY opened the door to VT, and then JY was killed in the hallway very soon after she opened the door. But what on earth could have happened to lead to that?

The only thing I can imagine as a plausible manslaughter defence is that VT startled JY by being at her door/kitchen window (for whatever reason), JY reacted defensively, opened the door to him carrying a knife from the kitchen, and a struggle broke out in which VT quickly overpowered JY to the point of strangulation.

The main problem I have with that turn of events is that why would JY open the door in that situation?

Although I can't really think of ANY plausible situation where JY would feel safe opening the door, but would then be strangled within minutes.

It really is the most bizarre case.

In considering this scenario, Tabak would not be angry when she opened the door. He was so much taller and stronger than Jo. He could certainly have taken any knife away from her...told her to calm down.

And, as you say, it seems highly unlikely that a young woman, safely in her home, already on record with "dreading" being alone, ...sees a large man outside her window, and in her fear, decides to open the door and engage in physical combat with him!

The only reason I can imagine her opening that door is if she saw him hurting her cat...or carrying it back to her. But, in that case, Tabak still escalated to strangulation with such rapidity, it can only seem the response of a very troubled man.

I wonder if he was seething at his girlfriend that night? Was she the "alpha dog" in their relationship? Did he constantly repress his anger at her, concede to her...to keep her...maybe the only girlfriend he ever had? He had only been home two weeks. Did he resent or feel threatened by her going to that party? Maybe he brought the cat back to Jo and made a pass at Jo to get even and then took out all his rage on her when rebuffed. Or maybe he was so bored/angry that he decided to enter Jo's apartment...or masturbate in front of her window...do something "risky" in some weird sense of retaliation...rebellion.

When he got caught, he went into survival mode. He just could not lose TM.

In any event, I just fail to see how this crime can be explained as some sort of accident by a normal man. Or VT can be considered not dangerous to society in general.

 

[bees]

I've been wondering about that for ages, too. To be honest, I can't see her (or anyone else of her age, intelligence and common sense) opening the door to someone they don't know with a kitchen knife. No matter how scared, if you open the door with a knife, unless you are a knife fighter, it's unlikely you'll be able to use it properly in self-defence. It turns you into a danger to yourself because chances are the knife will be used against you, or you'll hurt yourself trying to use it. Miss Y. wasn't in the habit of engaging in knife fighting, as far as we know.

I commented earlier that she could have had a knife in her hand because she was opening the pizza wrapping. I think it's unlikely she'd have opened the door if she'd been scared - she must have felt safe to open it (if she did).

 

[notsure]

I wonder if he was seething at his girlfriend that night? Was she the "alpha dog" in their relationship? Did he constantly repress his anger at her, concede to her...to keep her...maybe the only girlfriend he ever had? He had only been home two weeks. Did he resent or feel threatened by her going to that party?

I have been thinking about this case for a long time, and motivation is the main puzzle. What you say above is actually what I think is the most likely thing. It explains the suddenness and the brutality of the attack. It all indicates a pent up rage (based on long-term insecurities). I think he might have been stomping around, not knowing what to do with himself. When he saw Jo (who bore a passing superficial resemblance to his girlfriend), he lashed out. It was nothing personal against Jo: mentally he was killing his girlfriend. Then afterwards, after he had got that out of his system, he could go back to being "lovely Vincent" again.

 

[Nausicaa]

What's wrong with the idea that Tabak knocked on the door or rang the bell in the normal way, looking perfectly amicable and Joanna opened it as she had not the slightest reason not to ?

 

[Nausicaa]

rupertevelyn Rupert Evelyn
Asked whether death "must have" occurred in 12 hours after lunch Delaney says "death occurred after eating that last meal" #joyeates
6 minutes ago

Doesn't everyone's death occur after eating their last meal ?

 

[Nausicaa]

Don't know but I imagine that tiled surfaces must be pretty good for getting prints from so they concentrated hard in there. There was quite a bit of black powder on the kitchen cupboards aswell.

I don't think they could have found his fingerprints in the flat - they would have said by now if they had.

Surely there is no need to discuss the presence of VT's fingerprints as it is admitted that he killed her and no one seems to be contesting that she died in the flat. The only interest in his fingerprints would be if they were found in some place that shed light on the when, why and how.

 

[Clio]

The defence are clearly following the path of undermining the prosecution's expert witnesses, no doubt with a view to showing the plausibility of some totally different scenario that they will present in due course.

Of course - it's what they do. Presumably the break in the thyroid horn was discovered by Dr White at the 3rd post mortem. Perhaps Dr White will testify aswell.

 

[weeeva]

I was thinking about the case whilst I was trying to get to sleep last night.

The defence are at some point going to HAVE to set out a plausible explanation as to the events of that night and why he strangled her.

It has been indicated that the defence will say that they first saw each other through the kitchen window. It would then seem that JY opened the door to VT, and then JY was killed in the hallway very soon after she opened the door. But what on earth could have happened to lead to that?

The only thing I can imagine as a plausible manslaughter defence is that VT startled JY by being at her door/kitchen window (for whatever reason), JY reacted defensively, opened the door to him carrying a knife from the kitchen, and a struggle broke out in which VT quickly overpowered JY to the point of strangulation.

The main problem I have with that turn of events is that why would JY open the door in that situation?

Although I can't really think of ANY plausible situation where JY would feel safe opening the door, but would then be strangled within minutes.

It really is the most bizarre case.

Yes, it does not matter what way we look at it, every suggestion seems too ridiculous and far fetched.
If I saw someone looking in my window, the last thing I would do is open the door and challenge them. In fact I would run to the door to ensure I had locked it.
The only thing I can think of that would make Jo open the door,and challenge VT, would be if she saw him through the window, being cruel to the cat.
But even that seems so ridiculous.
Mind you if I saw someone kicking my cat, I would be out there like at shot, fearless.

 

[bees]

@rupertevelyn
Asked if one hand could cause injury to front and back of neck Delaney says "that would be possible yes". #joyeates

So defence possibly going for a neck grab with one hand while the other is gripping her wrist.

 

[weeeva]

Goodness. Things are looking pretty vague.

 

[Robin Hood]

skynewsgatherer Harriet Tolputt
Trial of #VincentTabak continues. Dr Delaney now under re-examination by prosecution barrister Nigel Lickley,QC.
1 minute ago

 

[badhorsie]

I've been wondering about that for ages, too. To be honest, I can't see her (or anyone else of her age, intelligence and common sense) opening the door to someone they don't know with a kitchen knife. No matter how scared, if you open the door with a knife, unless you are a knife fighter, it's unlikely you'll be able to use it properly in self-defence. It turns you into a danger to yourself because chances are the knife will be used against you, or you'll hurt yourself trying to use it. Miss Y. wasn't in the habit of engaging in knife fighting, as far as we know.

Given that she was uncomfortable about being on her own (which I can totally understand), why would she have opened the door to someone she didn't know (or only may have only known by sight, given that they were neighbours) after dark, after seeing him through the kitchen window (if that's what happened first), when she was on her own and not overly relaxed about it? The only thing I can come up with (meaning, the only reason *I* would open the door in such circumstances) would be if a neighbour I knew by sight indicated (say, through the kitchen window) that he'd taken a parcel in for me (it wouldn't have occurred to me to look for a Royal Mail notification card etc., especially if he'd surprised me) or that he'd brought my cat, or some such likely thing that neighbours might do.

I am so sad about the whole thing. A life taken so unneccessarily and in such a horrible way. My heart goes out to her family and friends.

FWIW, I have a huge axe behind my front door. We live in the sticks and a lot of traffic passes through. Have never used it but it is there

 

[Redgoblin]

richardpayneitv (richardpayneitv)
Dr Delaney - Jo Yeates had injuries to right and left sides of head and top of head. Not expected with single collapse to the ground.

Bang goes my theory that he kicked the door open and knocked JY out.

 

[Cherwell]

Doesn't everyone's death occur after eating their last meal ?

I expect Dr Delaney was confirming that the lunch was the last meal, that she ate nothing else before she died.