GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #15

[otto]

There's a direct train service from Bristol to Swansea.

The friend mentioned that although Joanna wanted to visit her that evening, all the buses and trains were out of service because of the weather.

 

[otto]

Hi Otto - no, the suggestion is that he took the body to Longwood Lane on the Friday night, probably after he had been to Asda. The CCTV bridge seems to be just a rumour, as he would not have gone via the suspension bridge and in any event the body was in the boot and would not have been visible.

Thanks ... so after buying snacks he must have driven to the quarry. I am completely confused by how it started ... what was he thinking, why did he go to her flat in the first place, why did he attack her. It almost seems like his only plan was to attack her.

 

[edgedweller]

Thanks ... so after buying snacks he must have driven to the quarry. I am completely confused by how it started ... what was he thinking, why did he go to her flat in the first place, why did he attack her. It almost seems like his only plan was to attack her.

Hopefully at some point we will find out!

 

[aneurin]

I do too. It gives him scope a mile wide to paint himself how he wants to or to make up any story he wishes because there is no one else who knows otherwise so he has no fear of contradiction. We could end up feeling sorry for the blighter. I can just imagine a picture conjured up of a well-meaning, good, neighbourly, blundering, inadvertent killer and the jury and the public gallery moved to tears. Where's me hanky? <sob...sob...>

Don't underestimate VT. I suspect that he is a consummate actor. And while you're about it, don't underestimate the possibility of a stupid, sentimentally inclined jury.

Well I think that the indications are that is precisely the route the defence are going to take. They will try and sell the story of a very nice man who got himself into a bit of a pickle, and one can never exclude the possibility that the jury will buy that version. But so far much of what the prosecution have been doing is simply loading up the guns with ammunition. They'll start firing when VT takes the stand.

 

[FiestyFairy]

Try gripping something with moderate force for a minimum of 20 seconds. I just tried it with a cushion and can confirm you would have to know exactly what you were doing. Especially so, since in the case of Jo she would be resisting and struggling

 

[aneurin]

... The facts are though, that he did strangle her to death. How can that be done accidentally? ...

I think I've said before, that's a tough story to sell. Almost by definition, if you grab somebody by the throat and start squeezing then that somebody is going to die. It's going to be difficult to convince a jury that any reasonable person would think otherwise.

Legally speaking, it all comes down to what they call the 'Dawson Test' which is "undertaken upon the basis of the knowledge gained by a sober and reasonable man as though he were present at the scene of the crime and watched the unlawful act being performed". So if you were standing there in the hallway (or wherever) and you saw VT put his hand or hands to JY's throat what would you think was happening? And what would you think was going to happen to JY as a result?

 

[Luna15]

Exactly - I'm sure her parents are at least glad of that. To never know what had happened would be a horrible torture. At least she was found and given a proper burial surrounded by those that loved her. It is just such a waste of life.

I wonder if the defence are going to claim that she invited him in after seeing him outside and something happened in the bedroom (earrings displaced from bedside table) and that she 'led him on' then changed her mind...? Then she walked out to the hall/asked him to leave and that's where the struggle took place. He panicked as he was worried Jo would tell TM. So this would be later, more like 9.30-10pm in their view. Feel sorry for Greg if this is their tactic - talk about blemishing Jo's memory.

he might go with she saw him slip on the ice and went out to help him...

he needs to explain what he was doing there - it's not the usual route to his home is it?

 

[veggiefan]

The friend mentioned that although Joanna wanted to visit her that evening, all the buses and trains were out of service because of the weather.

Yes, I think we all know that. I made the point about the train service because someone asked how JY could have contemplated making the journey without a car. The answer is that it can easily be done by train, which is undoubtedly what she intended, but she was advised not to do so because of the potential difficulty in getting back if the weather closed in (which it did) and trains were cancelled.

 

[Trouble007]

I cant help wondering why that video and all the website content was removed? surley from CCTV they know if it is VT or not as they would have got a close up when he entered waitrose and left? if it is him it looks very much like he saw her, then quickly departed so he could be at the flat before her, then waiting round the side of the flat, as soon as she opened the door attacked her, hence the immediate scream, i dont buy the arm around her stuff or the her letting him in. if that video is him then i think it was premeditated.

 

[Sammyme]

I got the impression that the Chaplain thought it was upsetting for VT?
Mr Brotherton told the court that Tabak wanted to talk more but that he didn't want him to as he was getting upset.by skynewsgatherer via twitter 10/18/2011 11:22:31 AM 12:22 PM

That's how I read it too.

 

[MMENJBRIT]

i cant help wondering why that was just circulated. Just confirm for me that this is a new video. Was it circulated in error? There can only be one reason that it was not shown before and that it has some kind of evidence. Wonder if they have more CCTV that has not yet been shown? I wonder what the prosecution may have up their sleeves?

 

[veggiefan]

Legally speaking, it all comes down to what they call the 'Dawson Test' which is "undertaken upon the basis of the knowledge gained by a sober and reasonable man as though he were present at the scene of the crime and watched the unlawful act being performed". So if you were standing there in the hallway (or wherever) and you saw VT put his hand or hands to JY's throat what would you think was happening? And what would you think was going to happen to JY as a result?

I'm sure you're right that the Dawson Test is still used, but the sad truth of the matter is that the sober and reasonable man is more than likely to run a mile these days, rather than deduce what is happening before him.

Sadly, an elderly friend of mine was recently set upon by a gang of youths in front of witnesses - none of whom even bothered to call the emergency services before fleeing. They certainly didn't hang around to evaluate whether giving a 70-year old a good kicking might result in a perforated spleen and a psychotic fear of leaving his house ever again.

 

[Luna15]

i cant help wondering why that was just circulated. Just confirm for me that this is a new video. Was it circulated in error? There can only be one reason that it was not shown before and that it has some kind of evidence. Wonder if they have more CCTV that has not yet been shown? I wonder what the prosecution may have up their sleeves?

I dont think they can withhold anything.... I'm by no means a legal expert but I thought both prosecution and defence had to 'disclose' all evidence?

 

[Firefly75]

Vincent Tabak refused to comment when detectives asked if he had made sexual advances towards his neighbour Joanna Yeates, her murder trial heard .

Tabak also declined to answer as police inquired whether he had been in the 25-year-old's bedroom or if she had "led him on", Bristol crown court was told.[End of quote]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/oct/18/vincent-tabak-no-comment-joanna-yeates?newsfeed=true

Ah good grief.

 

[veggiefan]

I wonder what the prosecution may have up their sleeves?

Just about nothing. They have shot their bolt (they conclude tomorrow) and the sad fact of the matter is that they haven't managed to establish clearly what happened in Canynge Road that night.

It's now over to the defence. It looks like they have a lot to present, and William Clegg QC is extremely talented: he gnaws away at undermining the detail of the prosecution's case, as in the case Jill Dando where he defended Barry George.

 

[Clio]

i cant help wondering why that was just circulated. Just confirm for me that this is a new video. Was it circulated in error? There can only be one reason that it was not shown before and that it has some kind of evidence. Wonder if they have more CCTV that has not yet been shown? I wonder what the prosecution may have up their sleeves?

I assume you are referring to the Waitrose video?

There is something very odd. It was shown to the jury, it was put on the A&S Police website and now, not only has the video been removed from the A&S website, the whole case seems to have disappeared from their site

 

[Sammyme]

Well I think that the indications are that is precisely the route the defence are going to take. They will try and sell the story of a very nice man who got himself into a bit of a pickle, and one can never exclude the possibility that the jury will buy that version. But so far much of what the prosecution have been doing is simply loading up the guns with ammunition. They'll start firing when VT takes the stand.

And I expect a substantial part of it will be firing at the ruthless nature of his actions, not only at the time but for an extended period afterwards, which in their sheer persistence, willingness to deceive, and even to incriminate someone innocent, may undermine (fatally, I hope) any construction of a harmless, accidental killer.

 

[Sammyme]

Try gripping something with moderate force for a minimum of 20 seconds. I just tried it with a cushion and can confirm you would have to know exactly what you were doing. Especially so, since in the case of Jo she would be resisting and struggling

And what the heck did he expect would happen when he'd done that?

 

[aneurin]

I'm sure you're right that the Dawson Test is still used, but the sad truth of the matter is that the sober and reasonable man is more than likely to run a mile these days, rather than deduce what is happening before him....

Fortunately (for the law anyway) the "sober and reasonable man" they have in mind is entirely an intellectual construct.

... Sadly, an elderly friend of mine was recently set upon by a gang of youths in front of witnesses - none of whom even bothered to call the emergency services before fleeing. They certainly didn't hang around to evaluate whether giving a 70-year old a good kicking might result in a perforated spleen and a psychotic fear of leaving his house ever again.

And equally sadly, that tale is not unique either.

 

[Firefly75]

They then heard Tabak repeat the allegation he had given police in a witness statement on December 31 about landlord Christopher Jefferies.

"I remember at some point before he was arrested but after Joanna was known to be missing that Tanja and I were staying at her parents' house in Cambridge for Christmas," Tabak's statement said.

"The police had phoned us at least twice while we were there. Tanja and I discussed the business of being asked to help move his car in the icy drive on Saturday December 18.

"Tanja felt maybe we should tell the police but I thought it might wrongly incriminate him and that it probably wasn't important."



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