GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #16

[coley144]

If Greg, distracted by his problems with his car and late getting off on his journey, left without locking the door...and this is how VT wandered into the flat...this would also explain why JY's keys were in her handbag. She never had to use them. She too found the door unlocked. She came in.,.,essentially trapping VT in her bedroom with no way of leaving unnoticed.
All evolved from this predicament.

But if that were true she wouldn't have put the oven on, opened the cider etc. She would have explored the flat straight away to see if anyone had broken in.

 

[Sammyme]

I totally agree with you, him already being in the flat is the only scenario that I can get to nearly fit. GR & JY had only been in the flat for 7 weeks, I’m sure when the last tenants moved out there were some repairs/decoration or suchlike to be seen to – even cleaning. CJ spent a lot of time abroad – would he have entrusted VT or TM with the keys to let in workmen or suchlike? How well did VT & TM get on with the previous tenants? Had they entrusted them with a key at any point? Did VT notice where they kept the spare one outside? All these things are probably classed as ‘supposition’ and I don’t think they would be able to be presented in court, I did wonder if the Judge developed one of his nervous twitches at this point [stevenmorris20 steven morris Judge says Tabak "gained access" to Yeates' flat and killed her. < [twitterers speechmarks not mine]... I think a lot more will come out after the trial – there are too many pieces of the puzzle missing for us to get a full picture.

Anyone who doubts how easy it is to get into a locked house, enter ‘key bumping’ into youtube search or google it.

I cannot understand why JY’s keys were found in her bag on the dining table if she had come in and locked herself in, and we all know how VT likes to ‘cover himself’ – no way do I believe he had the presence of mind to leave that door on the latch, I believe he could have fled the scene in shock immediately afterwards, how did he know that someone hadn’t heard the screams and were coming to investigate? No way did he leave that door on the latch for her to be discovered...

We don't know that Joanna had locked herself in.

I'm not sure he did say he left the door on the latch. If I am remembering it correctly from the tweets, I think he was asked how he got back into the flat and whether he had left it open, to which he replied Yes.

Only yesterday we learned that the door was hard to shut. So it seems it might be more likely in a panic to be left open than to remember to ensure it was shut.

 

[Curious Alice]

I believe the jury in the case of Ian Huntley deliberated for 16 hours over three days but couldn't reach a unanimous verdict. The judge then said he would accept a majority verdict and within an hour they returned an 11-1 verdict of guilty.

Wow, I never noted that at the time of his conviction. Hard to believe someone though Huntley was not guilty of murdering those two beautiful children; I would have thought the evidence was irrefutable.

 

[Sammyme]

According to the report in the Mirror, they knew it was CJ "because he walked in unannounced".

However, the report is anonymous and the Mirror later admitted (after being sued) that the allegations they published about Mr Jefferies (including that he invaded the privacy of his tenants) were entirely untrue. They paid over a considerable sum to CJ for this and other libels.

It's a serious allegation because it is against the housing and tenant law for a landlord to do that. For maintenance, repairs, inspections and the like they have to give proper notice and make arrangements with the tenants.

 

[brownbread]

I live on a small country acreage and as I am frequently alone, I am religious about double locking my doors...so much so, that, on the weekends, I often accidentally lock my husband out while he is doing yard work.

A few months ago, on a day I was rushed to get to a meeting, I could not find one of the dogs to bring him in. Finally I got him inside, and I was flustered as I left. I came home to find that I had left the door... open.

I have thought of this incident in my life from the start. Everyone who knows me would say I am obsessive about locking doors. But in that chaotic moment...

Greg had a bit of a commotion getting started on his journey. Did he run back to the apartment to get the cables to jump-start the car or to make a call to get assistance from the neighbor? Then run out to start the car...and just leave?

Did VT , bored and at loose ends, find the door open and the apartment available to him as he was poking around outside? Did he decide to look around the bedroom, start rummaging through her things? Was he taking JY's underwear as a sexual "memento" when she came home and , as she settled in...suddenly, there they were, face to face?

That sounds plausible, but I come back to the point: if that was what happened, why make up to the story about making a pass at her?

Even if he HAD been in the house beforehand snooping round her underwear, it would be easily denied. He could just say he passed by the door, saw it was wide open with no evidence of anyone being in, so he called out - no answer - he went inside to check everything was alright - then heard a noise at the door (Joanna arriving home) - not knowing it was her and fearing it may be a burglar he kept quite for a couple of minutes (giving her time to take off her shoes, open drink, put oven on) - then made his presence known, hoping not to startle her, but she screamed....

This would be a much more understandable defence, and would fit in with the timing of the screams heard by others.

Any incriminating evidence such as underwear he had moved could easily have been put back or removed from the scene.

The fact that this wasn't his explanation demonstrates to me that it isn't what happened.

More generally I am unsure whether there is any significance to the underwear in the hall - if he's removing the pizza and the sock, taking time to turn off the TV and oven - why would he leave an incriminating pair of knickers lying around?

 

[KMP09]

Me neither.

The thing that knocks this theory though is why was her apron in the hall? I wouldn't put an apron on to put a pizza in the oven but I would put one on to bake....ullhair:

Yes that was the part i forgot to mention in my time line when she went into the kitchen, we all know she had the intention of baking that night, so it could be that when she first went into her kitchen she had put her apron on before VT comes to the door.

 

[enzeder]

We don't know that Joanna had locked herself in.

I'm not sure he did say he left the door on the latch. If I am remembering it correctly from the tweets, I think he was asked how he got back into the flat and whether he had left it open, to which he replied Yes.

Only yesterday we learned that the door was hard to shut. So it seems it might be more likely in a panic to be left open than to remember to ensure it was shut.

BBM

"He said that after killing Yeates, Tabak returned to his flat, leaving Yeates' door on the latch."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/oct/19/vincent-tabak-joanna-yeates-court

 

[Sarahlou]

Wow, I never noted that at the time of his conviction. Hard to believe someone though Huntley was not guilty of murdering those two beautiful children; I would have thought the evidence was irrefutable.

That surprised me too, I didn't know that before. I know it's a different jury but it still makes me a bit worried about what verdict will be returned in this case.

 

[Sammyme]

I live on a small country acreage and as I am frequently alone, I am religious about double locking my doors...so much so, that, on the weekends, I often accidentally lock my husband out while he is doing yard work.

A few months ago, on a day I was rushed to get to a meeting, I could not find one of the dogs to bring him in. Finally I got him inside, and I was flustered as I left. I came home to find that I had left the door... open.

I have thought of this incident in my life from the start. Everyone who knows me would say I am obsessive about locking doors. But in that chaotic moment...

Greg had a bit of a commotion getting started on his journey. Did he run back to the apartment to get the cables to jump-start the car or to make a call to get assistance from the neighbor? Then run out to start the car...and just leave?

Did VT , bored and at loose ends, find the door open and the apartment available to him as he was poking around outside? Did he decide to look around the bedroom, start rummaging through her things? Was he taking JY's underwear as a sexual "memento" when she came home and , as she settled in...suddenly, there they were, face to face?

You've just reminded me I went into town shopping for an hour or so recently, came back home and found I had left the front door open. How did I do that? Just forgot to ensure that I had pulled it hard enough to shut behind me. A fleeting moment's distraction for no known reason when I just failed to notice what I was doing.

 

[Curious Alice]

You've just reminded me I went into town shopping for an hour or so recently, came back home and found I had left the front door open. How did I do that? Just forgot to ensure that I had pulled it hard enough to shut behind me. A fleeting moment's distraction for no known reason when I just failed to notice what I was doing.

I've done it too. We have a Chubb lock, no Yale so you need to actively "lock" the door rather than just pull it closed. We are quite OCD nowadays about ensuring back door/front doors are secured. Been out and left both open in the past. These things happen.

 

[Sammyme]

What time did the vicar claim he had the "its slippy/icy" convo with her?

I don't know that he did say what time it occurred. In the accounts I have seen he mentioned what they had said to each other and that they were about fifteen feet apart. If anyone here knows any further information about whether he specified a time, I hope they will let us know.

 

[stmarysmead]

I thought of that - but why not just say 'I found your flat door was opened.... I was just doing my neighbourhood watch bit...'

I can see him FROZEN... finding himself trapped in her bedroom as JY comes in and starts to settle in. Maybe he has disturbed too many things that he can nor silently "fix up" with JY now in the next room. Maybe he has been rooting through her lingerie drawer and it's open. How does one explain THAT as neighborhood watch?

He might not have had time before she spotted him to think through an excuse. She sees him, screams...and now he has to stop the screaming. In fairness, he may have been as terrified as she was! And he has to think up this immediate excuse in his second language!

This is not about a "kiss" if Jo lives...but about an intrusion...with such disarray that her parents noticed.

Then there is the earrings strewn about. Was he handling them, handling her underwear...and that accounts for the strange findings?

To me, this pulls a number of the aspects of this story that puzzle us. But this is a story VT can never tell, because a kiss may be understandable, but an intrusion with disarray...much, much harder.

 

[Clio]

Apologies if this has already been posted. If you go to the bottom of the article, and click on "here", it takes you to a video of VT driving round Bristol after JY had been killed

Video date is 18/12/10 so not sure where this fits in the timeline
http://www.jackbristol.com/news/bristols-news/yeates-flirted-with-me-tabak-tells-court-6876/

There's also a still in the following article
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-st...have-walked-away-court-hears-115875-23514067/

 

[Sammyme]

I agree. She was heating up the oven for the pizza, not to start baking.

Conjuring up an image of feminine domestication in the form of baking on the night she was attacked is being used for effect by the prosecution but with no basis IMO.

It has a basis, though. There is the apron which she would not I imagine be getting out to heat a pizza but would be more likely to before getting stuck into the flour and the mincemeat. There is the fact that she was known to have planned to do her Christmas baking that weekend and complete her shopping and preparations for Christmas and a party that she and Greg were giving. She had a lot to do in that final weekend before Christmas - which may be a reason she didn't go to Sheffield.

 

[goldielox]

I've done it too. We have a Chubb lock, no Yale so you need to actively "lock" the door rather than just pull it closed. We are quite OCD nowadays about ensuring back door/front doors are secured. Been out and left both open in the past. These things happen.

I have the same lock as you. I prefer it as I always locking myself out when I had the "pull it closed" type. On saying that in the course of the last ten years on several occasions I've woken uip to find I didnt lock the door the night before, gone away for two days and got back to find I hadnt locked the door before I left, gone out for the day and arrived back to find that, not only had I not locked the door before I left, I'd also left the thing wide open....and loads of times people have knocked on my door to tell me I've left my keys in the door.

With my track record where doors are concerned I find it easier to envisage someone forgetting to close or lock a door one time, than to envisage someone double locking their door without fail every single time when they arrive at home....and especially if they have a cat.

 

[stmarysmead]

That sounds plausible, but I come back to the point: if that was what happened, why make up to the story about making a pass at her?

Even if he HAD been in the house beforehand snooping round her underwear, it would be easily denied. He could just say he passed by the door, saw it was wide open with no evidence of anyone being in, so he called out - no answer - he went inside to check everything was alright - then heard a noise at the door (Joanna arriving home) - not knowing it was her and fearing it may be a burglar he kept quite for a couple of minutes (giving her time to take off her shoes, open drink, put oven on) - then made his presence known, hoping not to startle her, but she screamed....

This would be a much more understandable defence, and would fit in with the timing of the screams heard by others.

Any incriminating evidence such as underwear he had moved could easily have been put back or removed from the scene.

The fact that this wasn't his explanation demonstrates to me that it isn't what happened.

More generally I am unsure whether there is any significance to the underwear in the hall - if he's removing the pizza and the sock, taking time to turn off the TV and oven - why would he leave an incriminating pair of knickers lying around?

Some very good points.

If he was in the apartment, when Jo first arrived , VT had to make a choice. In order to make the Neighborhood Watch story plausible, he really need to call out AT ONCE to Jo. But if her bedroom was in any way disturbed, a drawer open, etc....he may have hesitated. He would be panicked now at being discovered.

But if he continues to lurk in the bedroom, unsure what to do, as Jo settles in...his problem grows. Hestitation makes the excuse less plausible every second it continues. Helpful neighbors do not silently lurk in one's bedroom.

Jo may have put her things down, looking about as she does, and then started to search. Perhaps their first encounter was in the bedroom as she comes upon him there and screams.

We have seen VT is a calculating person, He may have been trying to calculate his next move when caught in JY's bedroom. He took too long for the "helpful neighbor" story to seem plausible, that's all.

 

[2goldfish]

To me, this pulls a number of the aspects of this story that puzzle us. But this is a story VT can never tell, because a kiss may be understandable, but an intrusion with disarray...much, much harder.

snipped by me - the irony is, if he told that tale - snooping, stealing panties, getting caught, she screams and from the shame and horror he does what he claims to have done because of an attempt to kiss - that would be far more believable than what he did tell - that it was a ten min convo and attempted kiss.


I've begun to also believe that he was snooping and she caught him. that is the only thing that makes sense to me. I could see her catching him and him freaking out and causing her death. I cannot see him freaking out and causing her death because she didnt want him kissing her.

 

[Sammyme]

Wow, I never noted that at the time of his conviction. Hard to believe someone though Huntley was not guilty of murdering those two beautiful children; I would have thought the evidence was irrefutable.

It seems that way but you only have to look at a group of people discussing any topic and you will see how varied are views and shades of opinion and how resistant some people can be to facts staring them in the face.

 

[brownbread]

I can see him FROZEN... finding himself trapped in her bedroom as JY comes in and starts to settle in. Maybe he has disturbed too many things that he can nor silently "fix up" with JY now in the next room. Maybe he has been rooting through her lingerie drawer and it's open. How does one explain THAT as neighborhood watch?

He might not have had time before she spotted him to think through an excuse. She sees him, screams...and now he has to stop the screaming. In fairness, he may have been as terrified as she was! And he has to think up this immediate excuse in his second language!

This is not about a "kiss" if Jo lives...but about an intrusion...with such disarray that her parents noticed.

Then there is the earrings strewn about. Was he handling them, handling her underwear...and that accounts for the strange findings?

To me, this pulls a number of the aspects of this story that puzzle us. But this is a story VT can never tell, because a kiss may be understandable, but an intrusion with disarray...much, much harder.

I've explained above how he could easily account for his actions - maybe not so easily to Jo at the time, but to a court after the event he could put forward a perfectly explicable version of these events, and with the added element of panic and adrenaline coursing about as they find themselves face to face in the flat, she screams, he tries to stop her, the manslaughter defence sounds much more plausible.

If what you described had happened, why would VT reject providing an account which was based upon this 'truth' and instead invent a bizarre account of a conversation which led to an attempted kiss which led to a scream, that all happened about 40 mins later, and still doesn't account for any of the 'disarray'?

 

[veggiefan]

If anyone here knows any further information about whether he specified a time, I hope they will let us know.

"The last person to see her was George Henwood who told the court he set out on his usual dog walk around Clifton around 8.15pm to 8.30pm when he spotted a couple, as well as Miss Yeates."

The only trouble is that clergy generally live next to their church - and his is five miles away from Canynge Road, on the opposite side of Bristol! If he set out from there at 8.15 he would never have seen JY alive, whatever time she was killed!

I guess he doesn't live next to his church, but I've no idea where he set out from at 8.15 to 8.30.