GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #2

[2goldfish]

I'm drawn towards this kind of theory.
A problem with it, though, I think is that
-- if Jo gets home before 9pm and is still alive by 11pm, we wouldn't have a bottle and a half of cider still knocking around.

well I dont know about that. much to my husband's annoyance, I will tend to open a cider and drink half or less then forget about it. I cant rule out her forgetting or not wanting to finish a cider.

 

[Slewth]

With more quite revealing information having only just come out re texts, lifestyle etc, a picture is starting to emerge of a fit young man in Jo’s newly-expanded social circle being the perpetrator.

For example, she - without Greg in tow - was the new “interesting” kid on the block at the local rowing club, a number of whom would have been invited to the Tuesday party, and had therefore recently become aware of exactly where she lived. They also knew she’d be alone on the Friday night. One of them – possibly more than one - was waiting in his car near her flat just hoping to catch her arriving home that night. His patience was rewarded when he finally saw her walking up the road. A few minutes later, he rang the doorbell.

She was initially pleased to see him, because she was alone and at a loose end. But things soon spiralled out-of-control – and perhaps he didn’t know the strength in those oversized rower’s hands of his – with tragic results.

Later that night, in an understandably half-baked attempt to create a smoke screen, he carried her dead body, and the contaminated unwrapped pizza with which she’d tried to defend herself, from the flat to the car. A powerfully built rower will think nothing of carrying his boat a long way from the shed to the water, on his shoulders…….

Whoever it turns out to be, to be honest my sympathies lie with Greg. He’d already lost Jo, even before she was taken from us all. I’m no longer surprised that, in his dejection, it took him 4 hours to report her missing.

 

[Nausicaa]

The precise details of the body disposal seem to be paling into insignificance, especially if we take the majority view that she can't have been lying where she was found for a week. However, it may be worth mentioning one thought about it. A few years ago I drove up the M40 and straight on into the Kensignton area of London at about 5 a.m. on Christmas morning and I don't think I crossed a single other car on the road. Nor did I see a soul. London was deserted. Conclusion : if there is one moment of the year when in most parts of England you can rely on tranquillity, it is Christmas morning in the hours after party-goers and midnight-mass-goers have gone home but no one has yet got up. That is the ideal time to be depositing corpses in semi-public places if one has to do so...

 

[teabreid]

OK let's take a closer look at the difficulties with this one :

1. It makes the brother an accomplice after the fact by silence about an extremely material fact.
2. It practically requires the murder to be pre-meditated at the time GR leaves Sheffield for his return journey as he would have not only to change cars but either leave his mobile behind or else take out the battery - otherwise he will have been picked up by antennæ on his return journey.
3. It requires a car to be available and enough cash to pay for fuel as he needs to do a round trip Sheffield-Bristol-Sheffield in the second car.
4. Anyone who knows the brother will know of the small number of potential cars that might have been used and the theory can be checked.
5. It requires the body to have been transported long distances in the boots of two different cars before dumping - one of which will have no good to contain any of Joanna's DNA.
6. It makes the decision to leave Joanna's personal effects in the flat very hard to explain. If Greg states that he found the flat with no sign of Joanna or of her keys, mobile, coat, shoes, etc, this will widen the field of potential supects considerably. (Potential answer is that the struggle left some ineffaceable signs in the flat, but even so...)
7. Greg would have known that he might not find Joanna at home - if she had had a reply to her text to the old acquaintance he wouldn't have - so he couldn't make detailed plans in advance.
8. I for one find it hard to see Greg planning to murder Joanna. If he did it, it needs to be quite unpremeditated...
9. It requires the body to be transferred between two car boots while probably in rigor mortis.

Do I dent your confidence yet ?

I didn't express any confidence, it was just a thought. Dealing with your points above:
1. Agreed, but how many unsolved cases are there where a relative isn't at least passively involved?
2. I don't agree. He may have just needed to sort things out that night. He might have just accidently left his mobile in the car he drove to Sheffield in.
3. Agreed, but his brother's car might well have had a full tank.
4. The police need to consider the possibility- have they checked?
5. I totally disagree- he drives back to Bristol in another car, arrives midnight, finds a situation he can't take, loses his temper, disposes of body that night then proceeds back to Sheffield. All DNA etc in the unknown car, which is the only one involved in the disposal.
6. I don't think it was a decision- in this scenario it is an unpremeditated crime of passion. He went too far in a rage, panicked, then decided he'd better get rid of the body, but none of it thought through, so stuff was left in the flat.
7. He just expected to find her at the flat- maybe she wasn't there when he arrived, which really would have sparked things off when she did get home?
8. I don't say this was planned, it just happened.
9. Again, see 5.

 

[Sgt Jones]

How is this for a possible scenario:

JY and BF have lunch together on Fri. It becomes apparent to BF that the relationship is ending. He is upset by this.

Having already made plans to visit Sheffield, BF proceeds to Sheffield, leaving around 7pm. During the drive he spends the entire time thinking about the ending of the relationship, and is worked up by the time he arrives at Sheffield (say around 10pm). BF decides to return to Clifton because he can't accept that the relationship is over. Travel time would put him back at Clifton around 1am.

When BF arrives the meeting doesn't go as he had planned (ie; JY isn't convinced of the error of her ways, and reversing her decision), an argument develops and he ends up strangling JY. BF panics and realises he needs to dispose of the body.

BF then does one of two things: 1) takes the body to Longwood Lane and dumps it, or 2) takes the body in his boot back to Sheffield (the cold temperatures mean there is no major decomp smell) and dumps it at Longwood Lane when he returns on Sunday evening.

This scenario accounts for:
BF's credit card receipts and mobile phone info (presuming it was turned off/battery removed for the intermediate return from Sheffield), BF's body language and verbal language before and after the body was discovered. BF's timeline on returning home Sunday night.

It does not account for:
Scream (unreliable IMO), report of three people at the flat (again, potentially unreliable).

BF's brother may also have assisted, even to the point of travelling with him from Sheffield.

Obviously this is pure speculation, but for me, explains quite a few of the things I have seen in the reporting (and in this thread). I guess ultimately I am saying that, even if the BF made it to Sheffield on the Friday there is nothing (reported/released) to say that he didn't turn right back around in between arriving and his return on Sunday night. Nor is there anything to specifically say that JY was murdered promptly when she returned home around 9pm.

Possible but one major flaw for me:

and mobile phone info (presuming it was turned off/battery removed for the intermediate return from Sheffield),

and:

BF's brother may also have assisted, even to the point of travelling with him from Sheffield.

That suggests the murder was pre - meditated that Greg fully intended to kill her upon his return and therefore took precautions to hide his mobile phone signal, recruit an accomplice but you state he killed her on impulse.

I also don't think he would risk a long journey, in bad weather conditions with a body in his car. Why not just leave her where she was and dispose of her on his return?

 

[wfgodot]

Good morning and good afternoon and good what-time-of-day-is-it-where-you-are? all. Breathtaking display of sleuthing by MrZhivago et al. last night, and it continues today with a cast undoubtedly the best of any thread currently on WebSleuths.

Here's Daily Mail's take on Jo's last text; nothing new here for those who have read the tale already, but a good start if you're just joining us:

Joanna's final text: Tragic architect sent message to male friend on night she vanished... but he missed it because he was asleep

 

[ruined detroit]

I'm leaning towards murder when she got home by an intimate and a dump job that same night.

I reckon they broke up at lunch as was said.

As an aside, do you think the LL will make Greg honour the lease on the flat or payout the remaining months? As a businessman he is entitled to.

 

[Patticake]

It would be interesting to know if this text was the ONLY one she sent that night. I wonder what the actual text said? I find it strange that after apparently not seeing her brothers friend for 18 months she text him when her bf was out of town. I think this could well be a new development and I am thinking that maybe the relationship between Greg and Jo wasn't as perfect as the media have portrayed. It seems to suggest that she was having a possible affair, or looking to? Lets not forget Jo was a 25 year old attractive female, she must have had a lot of attention and if she weren't totally happy with her bf then who could blame her for wanting to have some fun!

It also provides us with a potential MOTIVE for the first time.

Yet there are hurdles.

..

 

[Patticake]

The car Greg drove to Sheffield in needed a jump start before he could leave at around 7pm. If he arrived in Sheffield around 10pm, and having been thinking about his lunchtime discussion with Jo decided to return to Bristol to sort things out, he would most likely have used another car if one was available (his brother's) and left his own car with his brother to get a new battery for it. So his return journey could be made in anonymity, especially if he didn't need to buy fuel on the way.

Very good point.

I'm sure police have checked if GR's brother has a light colored 4X4 for instance.


.

 

[wfgodot]

From Sky News:

Bristol Murder: Cops Investigate New Leads

Police investigating the murder of Joanna Yeates say they are looking into new leads from fresh information gathered last night after retracing her final journey home.

Officers questioned over 200 people in various locations across Bristol in an attempt to find further information before her death.

Report goes on to say that at today's FA Cup game in Bristol, Bristol City v. Sheffield Wednesday, Bristol City players will wear on their shirts publicity for the investigation, and the reward to find Jo's killer.

w/video, here
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK...ds_After_Retracing_Her_Final_Steps_In_Bristol

 

[mikeymot]

I totally understand that what you said did not lead to this assumption. Sadly it was other peoples small mindedness that leapt to this sensationalism.

I don't think anyone has posted that they ARE paedophiles or they ARE gay....just a few who think they may be. This is not 'small mindedness' but open mindedness...which I feel is necessary when trying to consider all the information that has come into the public domain since this awful crime was committed. I do hope the police do not leave any stone unturned in their search for the perpetrator (s)...least of all because they may be accused of being 'small minded'. Any comments, true or not, about G/R....LL..the neighbours...will, no doubt, be hurtful to those people...but I think that most of the people on this site are trying their hardest to look into whatever information appears...and hopefully some useful points may help lead to the arrest and conviction of the guilty party (parties). I hope so.

 

[Sgt Jones]

I think the rowing club scenario as stated by Slewth is very plausible.

Another valid point Slewth makes is about the party invites - they would have gone out and had Jo's address on it therefore opening up Jo's home address to a whole variety of people - an infatuated admirer among them.

If someone from the rowing club was admiring Jo, perhaps they knew she would be home alone, knew where she lived and therefore lay in wait that Friday night.

When Jo's inside her flat, relaxed and not on her guard, he decides to knock, gets invited in as Jo is at a loose end and grateful for a bit of company.

I don't think Jo was planning to end it with Greg - do you plan a Christmas party at the home you share with your partner when you are not happy and want to end things?

 

[Sgt Jones]

Re: CAG

I find Jo getting in contact with CAG after 18 mths - 2 years a bit odd on a night she would be home alone.

Is it coincidence that the night she chooses to get in contact with someone she hasn't seen for such a long time is also the night she is murdered seemingly by someone she knew and trusted enough to admit to her flat?

Problem there is, CAG would need to know where Jo lived - but he may know from being invited to the party or did Jo text him her address? Is he in her Facebook friends and received a blanket message to say Jo and Greg had moved and here's their new address.

If so, did CAG think that he was on a "promise" as Jo texted him after 18 mths - 2 years wanting to meet up when when her b/f is away?

Maybe he did think that and maybe Jo's motives were totally innocent and she just wanted company / catch up and nothing more.

CAG gets angry when his advances are rejected.

 

[ruined detroit]

I think the rowing club scenario as stated by Slewth is very plausible.

Another valid point Slewth makes is about the party invites - they would have gone out and had Jo's address on it therefore opening up Jo's home address to a whole variety of people - an infatuated admirer among them.

If someone from the rowing club was admiring Jo, perhaps they knew she would be home alone, knew where she lived and therefore lay in wait that Friday night.

When Jo's inside her flat, relaxed and not on her guard, he decides to knock, gets invited in as Jo is at a loose end and grateful for a bit of company.

I don't think Jo was planning to end it with Greg - do you plan a Christmas party at the home you share with your partner when you are not happy and want to end things?

It was the end of the year, she had just graduated in Nov with her full degree. Maybe a lot had changed in the 2 years of the relationship and she was growing up and coming in to her own. Maybe she wanted to start 2011 on a fresh start and her and BF had agreed they could remain 'friends' and continuing to host the party was a feature of that.

 

[mikeymot]

Yes, that sounds worthwhile.
I'm inclined to think that she doesn't look like too much of a goer, but yep.
I think it will all come out in time.

I think the fact that Jo was the sort of girl who remained on good terms with any ex's says a lot about the kind of 'free spirit' she was. But going out with someone whose circle of friends includes those she has previously gone out with can be very difficult for the current partner to deal with. Some, eventually, start seeing things that aren't happening and become unreasonably jealous. (I speak from experience!)

 

[wfgodot]

I do note today that Daily Mail may be putting its money on CAG; their two main stories, the second of which was initially run a day or so ago and is now bumped to the top of the page, the first, today, are headlined

Joanna's final text: Tragic architect sent message to male friend on night she vanished... but he missed it because he was asleep

and

Did Jo buy dinner for her killer? As the Mail reconstructs her fateful final journey, an intriguing new theory

 

[mikeymot]

How is this for a possible scenario:

JY and BF have lunch together on Fri. It becomes apparent to BF that the relationship is ending. He is upset by this.

Having already made plans to visit Sheffield, BF proceeds to Sheffield, leaving around 7pm. During the drive he spends the entire time thinking about the ending of the relationship, and is worked up by the time he arrives at Sheffield (say around 10pm). BF decides to return to Clifton because he can't accept that the relationship is over. Travel time would put him back at Clifton around 1am.

When BF arrives the meeting doesn't go as he had planned (ie; JY isn't convinced of the error of her ways, and reversing her decision), an argument develops and he ends up strangling JY. BF panics and realises he needs to dispose of the body.

BF then does one of two things: 1) takes the body to Longwood Lane and dumps it, or 2) takes the body in his boot back to Sheffield (the cold temperatures mean there is no major decomp smell) and dumps it at Longwood Lane when he returns on Sunday evening.

This scenario accounts for:
BF's credit card receipts and mobile phone info (presuming it was turned off/battery removed for the intermediate return from Sheffield), BF's body language and verbal language before and after the body was discovered. BF's timeline on returning home Sunday night.

It does not account for:
Scream (unreliable IMO), report of three people at the flat (again, potentially unreliable).

BF's brother may also have assisted, even to the point of travelling with him from Sheffield.

Obviously this is pure speculation, but for me, explains quite a few of the things I have seen in the reporting (and in this thread). I guess ultimately I am saying that, even if the BF made it to Sheffield on the Friday there is nothing (reported/released) to say that he didn't turn right back around in between arriving and his return on Sunday night. Nor is there anything to specifically say that JY was murdered promptly when she returned home around 9pm.

This certainly is 'head spinning' stuff. If there was an actual time of death...or a 'window' when her body was left on the grass verge...then maybe everything would slot into place..but without this information it is sending me (and a lot of others!) round in circles. Still do not understand why at least one of these timings cannot be proved.
(Perhaps CSI IS as factual as Postman Pat after all!)

 

[Sgt Jones]

I do note today that Daily Mail may be putting its money on CAG; their two main stories, the second of which was initially run a day or so ago and is now bumped to the top of the page, the first, today, are headlined

Joanna's final text: Tragic architect sent message to male friend on night she vanished... but he missed it because he was asleep

and

Did Jo buy dinner for her killer? As the Mail reconstructs her fateful final journey, an intriguing new theory

Interesting.

I have always thought it was LL.

But the emergence of CAG does cast a whole new light on this.

I have to ask what his motives are for going to the press with his "I could have saved her life" story.

Why not keep quiet? All he is doing is fact tarnishing Jo and making it appear that Jo wasn't happy in her relationship and so sought out other male company.

He is also, like the LL, putting himself up as a suspect.

 

[mikeymot]

The car Greg drove to Sheffield in needed a jump start before he could leave at around 7pm. If he arrived in Sheffield around 10pm, and having been thinking about his lunchtime discussion with Jo decided to return to Bristol to sort things out, he would most likely have used another car if one was available (his brother's) and left his own car with his brother to get a new battery for it. So his return journey could be made in anonymity, especially if he didn't need to buy fuel on the way.

Was just going to post this very point...wonder if his brother drives a light coloured 4 x 4 by any chance?

 

[Nausicaa]

OK, here's something completely different, a weird and perverse idea which I don't believe myself and which is just waiting to be shot down in flames:

Jo’s relationship with Greg is on the rocks and she’s unhappy about it. He’s gone off, leaving her sad and lonely and “at a loose end” in the strongest sense of the expression. She hangs around at the party and drinks too much. She dawdles around shops, without buying much. She can’t handle being alone – no experience of it. She has a bright idea that makes her smile: she texts a guy she hardly knows to invite him…but heart sinks further when, predictably, nothing comes of it. She arrives safely home, takes off her boots, puts the pizza in the oven, swigs some cider while it’s cooking and bursts into tears. When her sobs abate, she finds she has burnt the pizza. It’s the last straw. She decides to end it all. She scribbles a bitter suicide note on the pizza packet and props it in a prominent place, then hangs herself using a belt or a cord. That is the scenario Greg discovers on his return after his weekend away. He is appalled at the event but also at how he will look, especially if the suicide note is especially hostile to him… So he decides to prevent the truth from coming out.
At that time of night, he can safely convey the body to his car using a holdall he had used for his excursion. He is streetwise enough to leave his mobile in the flat while he transports the body to a place of temporary concealment not too far away – the rifle range ? He discards the suicide note, the hanging cord/belt and the burnt pizza at a safe distance and returns home to clean up and create the impression of the flat he wants to leave and finalise the story he is going to give the police. All this takes four hours… The perfect touch would have been to leave a worried message on Joanna’s mobile, but he doesn’t think of that. On Christmas night he takes the body by a roundabout route (not crossing the suspension bridge) to the place it is destined to be discovered a few hours later.

Anyone still reading ? Would you like me to resign from this serious and intelligent thread immediately ?