GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #2

[Sgt Jones]

It was the end of the year, she had just graduated in Nov with her full degree. Maybe a lot had changed in the 2 years of the relationship and she was growing up and coming in to her own. Maybe she wanted to start 2011 on a fresh start and her and BF had agreed they could remain 'friends' and continuing to host the party was a feature of that.

I think that will depend on how long ago they decided to host the Christmas Party.

If it had been in October when they moved into the flat then yes - much more difficult to cancel the party and I can see them going ahead with it.

But if deciding to host a party was a spur of the moment thing, say agreed in the previous two weeks or so then no I don't think Jo was planning to end the relationship.

Also, Jo and Greg moved into the flat in October. She graduated in November - why take on the commitment of renting a flat and moving in with Greg if she knew she wasn't going to stay with him?

 

[Sgt Jones]

OK, here's something completely different, a weird and perverse idea which I don't believe myself and which is just waiting to be shot down in flames:

Jo’s relationship with Greg is on the rocks and she’s unhappy about it. He’s gone off, leaving her sad and lonely and “at a loose end” in the strongest sense of the expression. She hangs around at the party and drinks too much. She dawdles around shops, without buying much. She can’t handle being alone – no experience of it. She has a bright idea that makes her smile: she texts a guy she hardly knows to invite him…but heart sinks further when, predictably, nothing comes of it. She arrives safely home, takes off her boots, puts the pizza in the oven, swigs some cider while it’s cooking and bursts into tears. When her sobs abate, she finds she has burnt the pizza. It’s the last straw. She decides to end it all. She scribbles a bitter suicide note on the pizza packet and props it in a prominent place, then hangs herself using a belt or a cord. That is the scenario Greg discovers on his return after his weekend away. He is appalled at the event but also at how he will look, especially if the suicide note is especially hostile to him… So he decides to prevent the truth from coming out.
At that time of night, he can safely convey the body to his car using a holdall he had used for his excursion. He is streetwise enough to leave his mobile in the flat while he transports the body to a place of temporary concealment not too far away – the rifle range ? He discards the suicide note, the hanging cord/belt and the burnt pizza at a safe distance and returns home to clean up and create the impression of the flat he wants to leave and finalise the story he is going to give the police. All this takes four hours… The perfect touch would have been to leave a worried message on Joanna’s mobile, but he doesn’t think of that. On Christmas night he takes the body by a roundabout route (not crossing the suspension bridge) to the place it is destined to be discovered a few hours later.

Anyone still reading ? Would you like me to resign from this serious and intelligent thread immediately ?

Resignation accepted! LOL :crazy:

Why put yourself in the position of being the murderer of your girlfriend when your girlfriend has killed herself?

I'd rather air my dirty laundry to the police than risk spending life behind bars.

If Jo had killed herself and Greg had left her there and it was recorded as suicide I doubt it would even make the press so his dirty laundry wouldn't be aired in public.

PS - don't resign - well not just yet anyway :crazy:

 

[ruined detroit]

I think that will depend on how long ago they decided to host the Christmas Party.

If it had been in October when they moved into the flat then yes - much more difficult to cancel the party and I can see them going ahead with it.

But if deciding to host a party was a spur of the moment thing, say agreed in the previous two weeks or so then no I don't think Jo was planning to end the relationship.

Also, Jo and Greg moved into the flat in October. She graduated in November - why take on the commitment of renting a flat and moving in with Greg if she knew she wasn't going to stay with him?

Maybe she knew she had a lot more goin for her than he did. Maybe she could afford the rent on her own. She would have been on a decent wage and it sounds like a 1 bedroom flat (or maybe 2 as the mother came to stay) but even still it was a basement flat and would have been cheaper than one on a higher floor.

People can be quite cold. Maybe she made her mind up it was over and that was that. Neat and clinical.

 

[mikeymot]

OK let's take a closer look at the difficulties with this one :

1. It makes the brother an accomplice after the fact by silence about an extremely material fact.
2. It practically requires the murder to be pre-meditated at the time GR leaves Sheffield for his return journey as he would have not only to change cars but either leave his mobile behind or else take out the battery - otherwise he will have been picked up by antennæ on his return journey.
3. It requires a car to be available and enough cash to pay for fuel as he needs to do a round trip Sheffield-Bristol-Sheffield in the second car.
4. Anyone who knows the brother will know of the small number of potential cars that might have been used and the theory can be checked.
5. It requires the body to have been transported long distances in the boots of two different cars before dumping - one of which will have no good to contain any of Joanna's DNA.
6. It makes the decision to leave Joanna's personal effects in the flat very hard to explain. If Greg states that he found the flat with no sign of Joanna or of her keys, mobile, coat, shoes, etc, this will widen the field of potential supects considerably. (Potential answer is that the struggle left some ineffaceable signs in the flat, but even so...)
7. Greg would have known that he might not find Joanna at home - if she had had a reply to her text to the old acquaintance he wouldn't have - so he couldn't make detailed plans in advance.
8. I for one find it hard to see Greg planning to murder Joanna. If he did it, it needs to be quite unpremeditated...
9. It requires the body to be transferred between two car boots while probably in rigor mortis.

Do I dent your confidence yet ?

BTW do we know in what posture the body was found ? If it had first undergone rigor and then been frozen, all while in the boot of a car, it would presumably be permanently doubled over. If the body had been stored outside, not doubled over, but frozen before dumping, it would be very hard to fit it in an ordinary boot...

Very good points..but what if the car is a hatchback...seats down..a body could just be laid down with a blanket/tarpaulin covering it?

 

[Sgt Jones]

Maybe she knew she had a lot more goin for her than he did. Maybe she could afford the rent on her own. She would have been on a decent wage and it sounds like a 1 bedroom flat (or maybe 2 as the mother came to stay) but even still it was a basement flat and would have been cheaper than one on a higher floor.

People can be quite cold. Maybe she made her mind up it was over and that was that. Neat and clinical.

Jo and Greg shared cheesey chips when they met for lunch.

If someone was planning to dump their partner or were not getting along with them to the extent it was soon going to be over, would they share (as in eat from the same plate) a meal with them? Especially if they are "cold" towards that person.

Also, Greg has an alibi, seemingly strong enough not to see him as a suspect.

If he did do it, he was clever, cunning and also neat and cynical.

 

[ruined detroit]

Jo and Greg shared cheesey chips when they met for lunch.

If someone was planning to dump their partner or were not getting along with them to the extent it was soon going to be over, would they share (as in eat from the same plate) a meal with them? Especially if they are "cold" towards that person.

Also, Greg has an alibi, seemingly strong enough not to see him as a suspect.

If he did do it, he was clever, cunning and also neat and cynical.

It is common to break up in a public place lest it turn ugly!

 

[mikeymot]

I'm drawn towards this kind of theory.
A problem with it, though, I think is that
-- if Jo gets home before 9pm and is still alive by 11pm, we wouldn't have a bottle and a half of cider still knocking around.

She maybe had other drink available...had one glass of cider..then wine from the fridge..or the white bag she appeared to be carrying in the CCTV pics...a pressie from someone at work?

 

[MMENJBRIT]

Not sure if this relationship was on the rocks or not. Would she have just signed a lease with him on an expensive rental only 6 weeks prior? Unless of course someone emerged in the last week or so to change things.

 

[teabreid]

Anyone still reading ? Would you like me to resign from this serious and intelligent thread immediately ?

Still reading? Of course, what a gripping tale! Seriously, you have the imagination to be a good writer of crime fiction.

However back in the real world, Greg would need to be really stupid to put himself in the frame for an imaginary murder, and I'm pretty sure committing a few real crimes in the process (wasting police time, perverting the course of justice, failing to report a death, disposing of a body, etc etc.). In reality he would just call the police.

 

[whitedove]

Jo family in new appeal to catch killer, head lines on Sky News.






http://news.sky.com/skynews/

 

[mikeymot]

Possible but one major flaw for me:



and:



That suggests the murder was pre - meditated that Greg fully intended to kill her upon his return and therefore took precautions to hide his mobile phone signal, recruit an accomplice but you state he killed her on impulse.

I also don't think he would risk a long journey, in bad weather conditions with a body in his car. Why not just leave her where she was and dispose of her on his return?

I somehow do not veer towards the premeditated theory....think this was a 'crime of passion' or panic....but, people who panic do not always think through what to do with bodies, if anything. Will be glad when this is all over...more for Jo's parents than any other reason.

 

[wfgodot]

Not sure if this relationship was on the rocks or not. Would she have just signed a lease with him on an expensive rental only 6 weeks prior? Unless of course someone emerged in the last week or so to change things.

It's an interesting question. Sometimes, some people can feel so bottled in by expectations that they'll simply, to keep the peace, maintain the status quo (I've been there!) and go on (and on) with something with which their inner voice is disagreeing. Eventually though, inner voices become outward realities and the need for change becomes inevitable.

 

[mikeymot]

OK, here's something completely different, a weird and perverse idea which I don't believe myself and which is just waiting to be shot down in flames:

Jo’s relationship with Greg is on the rocks and she’s unhappy about it. He’s gone off, leaving her sad and lonely and “at a loose end” in the strongest sense of the expression. She hangs around at the party and drinks too much. She dawdles around shops, without buying much. She can’t handle being alone – no experience of it. She has a bright idea that makes her smile: she texts a guy she hardly knows to invite him…but heart sinks further when, predictably, nothing comes of it. She arrives safely home, takes off her boots, puts the pizza in the oven, swigs some cider while it’s cooking and bursts into tears. When her sobs abate, she finds she has burnt the pizza. It’s the last straw. She decides to end it all. She scribbles a bitter suicide note on the pizza packet and props it in a prominent place, then hangs herself using a belt or a cord. That is the scenario Greg discovers on his return after his weekend away. He is appalled at the event but also at how he will look, especially if the suicide note is especially hostile to him… So he decides to prevent the truth from coming out.
At that time of night, he can safely convey the body to his car using a holdall he had used for his excursion. He is streetwise enough to leave his mobile in the flat while he transports the body to a place of temporary concealment not too far away – the rifle range ? He discards the suicide note, the hanging cord/belt and the burnt pizza at a safe distance and returns home to clean up and create the impression of the flat he wants to leave and finalise the story he is going to give the police. All this takes four hours… The perfect touch would have been to leave a worried message on Joanna’s mobile, but he doesn’t think of that. On Christmas night he takes the body by a roundabout route (not crossing the suspension bridge) to the place it is destined to be discovered a few hours later.

Anyone still reading ? Would you like me to resign from this serious and intelligent thread immediately ?

Any theory is welcome....don't know if I can agree with this one...mainly because I have no doubt at all that G/R really loved Jo. Even if he had been rejected...I think he would have rung 999 in an attempt to try and save her...however long she had been dead. If it turns out to be G/R I'm certain it would not be proved to be premeditated...but the more 'ideas' that go into the pot....the more chance of getting at the truth.

 

[wfgodot]

Daily Mail has a new story up:

Our happy, carefree Jo was dumped by the road like a piece of garbage: Parents make desperate plea in hunt for killer

The parents's lengthy message goes on to state

'We feel a terrible loss and sadness, not just for ourselves, but for Jo, Chris and Greg.'
---
'We gain solace that she had found Greg, and Greg and found her, and that up until the time of her murder it was probably one of the happiest periods of her life.'
---
'We were excited and looking forward to having Jo and Greg with us over the Christmas period, because this was the first time that either of our children had brought their partner home for Christmas.'

I don't remember GR having played so prominent a role in the parents's statements before. It sounds as if they are comfortable with his (police-declared) non-suspect status.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ts-make-desperate-plea-help-catch-killer.html

 

[MMENJBRIT]

ok.... my apologies if I am banging on about the Glennis Caruthers link AGAIN!

I noticed watching one of the press interviews with L/L outside 44 Canynge rd ... he has a 3/4 length coat on.

Would he have worn the same Style or at least length in 1974?
Was his hair shoulder length in 1974?
Is he approx 5'10"?

This is the description of the person last seen with Glennis prior to her body being found outside of Bristol Zoo.

 

[Sgt Jones]

It is common to break up in a public place lest it turn ugly!

Not sure on that - I wouldn't want to end things in a public place in case it did turn nasty - I hate scenes.

I still don't think you would eat from the same plate as someone you are just about to dump.

When you know you are going to end things with someone, you automatically become cold towards them. Eating from the same plate is not being cold - in fact it suggests the opposite - it suggests a couple very much in love - the novelty hasn't worn off - they are still doing the things a couple who have just got together would do.

 

[ruined detroit]

Not sure on that - I wouldn't want to end things in a public place in case it did turn nasty - I hate scenes.

I still don't think you would eat from the same plate as someone you are just about to dump.

When you know you are going to end things with someone, you automatically become cold towards them. Eating from the same plate is not being cold - in fact it suggests the opposite - it suggests a couple very much in love - the novelty hasn't worn off - they are still doing the things a couple who have just got together would do.

It's a woman's right. We are a different breed ;-)

 

[Sgt Jones]

ok.... my apologies if I am banging on about the Glennis Caruthers link AGAIN!

I noticed watching one of the press interviews with L/L outside 44 Canynge rd ... he has a 3/4 length coat on.

Would he have worn the same Style or at least length in 1974?
Was his hair shoulder length in 1974?
Is he approx 5'10"?

This is the description of the person last seen with Glennis prior to her body being found outside of Bristol Zoo.

Yes I saw that too and it got me thinking as well about LL.

It seems he wasn't questioned about Glennis's murder but he was @ Clifton College.

 

[Sgt Jones]

It's a woman's right. We are a different breed ;-)

LOL, I'm female too (well I was the last time I looked). :crazy:

When I ended it with my husband, I got myself into the mindset by being cold towards him, creating a distance so it make the final act "easier."

Sharing a meal from the same plate does not send out "cold" signals or create a distance - it suggests "completeness"- two halves of the same entity.

 

[Nausicaa]

I don't remember GR having played so prominent a role in the parents's statements before. It sounds as if they are comfortable with his (police-declared) non-suspect status.

Today's statements from the police and from the family go out of their way to put an end to speculation on three issues by emphasising that it is known that Joanna reached home safely, that Greg cannot be suspected by those fully informed of the facts, and that Joanna and Greg's relationship was in healthy shape. I take it that the family are being closely guided by the police in what they say. Now we have to decide whether we trust the police on these issues. On the "Joanna reached home" statement, I do trust them. On the Greg can't be suspected, I incline to trust them or at least to agree with them. On the relationship issue, I'm less sure. Joanna was young, pretty, successful, exemplary and happy. Take away one or two of those and you diminish public interest and sympathy...