GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #4

[Malaconotus]

I may be going mad.
But this picture, which yes I believe is the location, is *not the same place* as where Phillb and Otto pinpoint the body. The wire fence shows that it's not the same. Have a look on Google Maps (it's easy to find) and nose around in street view.

I believe Phillb has it absolutely spot on. It's the foreshortening effect of telephoto lenses that is the problem. On another forum I use this effect is very common and often quite remarkable.

I was confused about the deposition site, but I am absolutely convinced it is immediately to the right of the quarry entrance particularly when you consider that the 'stone' may actually be the remnants of a 'wall' which predates the construction of the fence, which explains some apparently confused accounts.

It's possible that the body was frozen not only to the ground but to the 'stone', requiring the lifting gear.

And studying google images, the ground appears to fall away towards the fence from the kerb just to the right of the stone. If the body were dumped here, just to the right of the stone, and against the stone, even a shallow covering of snow would completely obscure its outline.

I think the body was there from the night Jo disappeared and was not moved subsequently. Dog walkers don't find bodies, their dogs do, but if the body was frozen and snow-covered, it would not be scented so readily by dogs.

 

[mikeymot]

So MW was at a party not asleep as previously said?

The friends at the Ram pub said Jo was going home for some 'me' time...to make mince pies and whatnot. So why was she texting an old friend inviting him out for a drink?


Just had to get these couple things in quick. Yesterday when I looked this topic was closed and now at 5am there are pages of posts. Are you lot up all through the night?

Yes...think most of us are 'night owls'! Do believe that Jo was looking forward to a bit of 'me' time...but it is very easy to get 'caught up in the moment' when you are out with friends and you've had a few drinks...maybe she just felt like continuing the joviality? But, has it said anywhere, what time her workmates left the pub? Don't quite understand why she left so early if she clearly wanted to continue partying?

 

[teabreid]

uhm... Just looking at this shot I can't see that big stone boulder that was outside the Quarry entrance. It should be visible on this pic I.M.O. I'd be interested to know if it was there now. I have to admit I thought the firebrigade winch to lift the body was a bit O.T.T. But a stone boulder, that makes more sense.

The sign at the entrance is different from the one on Streetview, so things might have changed in other ways- and anyway, wouldn't the boulder have been behind the vehicle, and not visible anyway?

 

[Phillb]

The sign at the entrance is different from the one on Streetview, so things might have changed in other ways- and anyway, wouldn't the boulder have been behind the vehicle, and not visible anyway?

It's very difficuilt to tell for certain from the camera angles, non of us where there, and were not going to be told how it was. So it's speculation really. I do think the Police were interested in that boulder, or what might be under it to be precise.

 

[badhorsie]

I think G/R is a nice guy....I think he really did (and probably still does) love Jo. Such was his despair at the interview (with the parents)....whether from grief ... or guilt, I have always thought that, if he did this awful thing to the woman he loved, he would eventually give himself up and confess.....one of the reasons I keep putting him on the 'back boiler' when trying to come up with a perp..with the necessary motive.

I am also finding it difficult to pin any guilt onto GR, his brother's response may be because they want privacy, not all families want to blab all to the media.
GR has been named a "witness not a suspect" by the police, he has clearly provided evidence as to his whereabouts to the police and I am usually one of the first to look accusingly at husbands/wives/partners in this sort of crime but I just don't get this feeling about him, if I am wrong then I will eat my velvet riding hat.

I think that this case will be unsolved, sadly or DNA will pick up some sad loner with a grudge against women, poor Joanna...

 

[mikeymot]

I'll post these images because there seems to be some real confusion where the body was left. The body deposit site is really relevant to how long it had been there, and would it have been seen earlier. Destroyer, along with others have the quarry entrance location spot on, but there seems a lot who think it was near a low wall higher up the lane.

The forensic tent over the body is clearly in the layby quarry entrance 'off' Longwood lane here.

Location where the body was placed on Google Street view.
The Police even confirm this with this statement ''I'm keen to hear from anyone who saw, or heard anyone acting suspiciously in the Longwood Lane area, particulary near to the area of the entrance to Durnford quarry
That statement can be seen on this Police press conference here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU_CrZuVTv0

If the quarry was still open, the wheels of the trucks where only a foot or so away from running over the body itself. A low wire mesh fence is strung along the concrete posts visible, the body wasn't thrown in there, but as the Police state on the road side verge between the large stone boulder, and quarry entrance gate. It would be really good to find out when the quarry closed for Christmas has as been mentioned before, while it's true some building firms close for a 2 week period over Christmas, it is an old tradition that is slowly dying out, many contractors and building suppliers work up to Christmas eve.

Durnford quarry is a real busy and important location, It states on their website it is the main supplier of agregate to the building industry in, and around the Bristol area. I.M.O that would give a good indication the quarry would still be in full swing Christmas week. If so, then someone had to open those quarry gates literally feet away from the body. All depending on snow depth, you'd have to take into account the effects of grit on the road, and heavy turning wheels. Snow melt alongside busy road verges is accelerated considerably. The dog walkers have stated themselves 'we walk pass that spot every day, if it had been there earlier were sure to have seen it. Other people passing the spot regular have quoted the same thing. I'd also be like to know if the quarry had any security or night patrol. I find it highly unlikely it didn't in all honesty.

There is confusion the body was found higher up the lane, on the grass verge along the narrow lane at the bottom of a low stone wall, there is no such wall where the body was placed. That report comes from bad press reporting, reporters have gone up the lane when it was reopened and quoted the spot where the floral tributes, and information appeal board are now situauted as the location of the body. The Police have only put those flowers and appeal board in that location at the top of the hill so all who pass will see it. It doesn't mark the actual body deposit spot.

A good point to note are the tyre marks from the trucks turning into the quarry. All trucks using the quarry turn into the quarry the same way. A weight limit restriction is imposed on Longwood Lane after the quarry entrance, you can see the 4 tonne limit signs on Google street view. The amount of heavy turning wheels is pretty clear to see on this image, no trucks travel to or from Beggers Bush lane heading North. If the council hadn't gritted Longwood lane, then i expect the quarry itself is more than capable of dealing with it's entranceway. Road grit always melts the sides of the roads.

It's these kind of pictures taken when the road was reopened that are confusing peoples accounts, they don't mark the actual spot. No one with any sense would pull up to dispose of a body and run the risk of blocking the narrow lane, even in the dead of night and eerie quiet, they still wouldn't chance an unexpected car wanting to pass.

The firebrigade had to use a special wench to remove the body, because it was effectively moulded into the snow and ice. That indicates the body was there for days rather than hours, on the other hand the easy to spot location suggests it was placed there only hours before the body was found on Christmas day.

No wonder the Police are really struggling with this case. Everything contradicts, and rules out every possible theory :banghead:

Some points to ponder there!

Very good points...I would still like to know when the quarry closed for the holidays. Whilst I take on board that they would probably stay open....if they are delivering to building sites and those sites have closed...then the quarry would surely have to wait until they opened again to resume deliveries?

Also, on the removal of the body, I thought the fire brigade were asked to move it...by lifting straight up..to prevent the crime scene being disturbed? Just something I seem to remember reading earlier on?

 

[mikeymot]

No worries

I'm afraid i don't know when the body was placed there. I still can't decide, it's too confusing.

Looking at these images of where her body was found..if two people were involved and could easily have carried that weight anywhere...why leave it there? I'm swinging more towards an earlier thought I had...that the perp. left her body there...just after she died in the hope that it WOULD be found. Maybe they had a pang of conscience about her parents needing closure? Maybe they equally surprised that the snow kept her body secreted until Christmas morning? Just another! thought.

 

[Phillb]

I've just found some quarry entrance shots when the road reopened here
http://www.aapone.com.au/Search.aspx?search=QUESTION+TIME&(IMPORTDATE>20100524)

I've got to say it does look to me like the boulder has been lifted out. You can see disturbed soil/grass sods? around it compared to the 2009 Google shot above. The shots on the link are a better indication of the layout today.

But that's about as far as I can go with the body location. I'm still non the wiser :waitasec:

 

[gloriana]

The first press conference with GR crying uncontrollably made me wonder about him. But if you watch the clip again (I don't have it to hand at the moment) he actually makes eye contact with the camera. I found this very suspicious and if he wasn't involved with Jo's murder perhaps it was the fact that his 'grief' wasn't genuine and probably not the devoted couple they were made out to be.
The parent's body language I found a bit strange too.

 

[mikeymot]

The fences are confusing me but I did notice that 2009 is printed on the Google street views so maybe the fences are different now?.

Right....let's all agree that Jos' body was found SOMEWHERE near the quarry...either right at the entrance...or on a very narrow verge, close to the road. Whichever it is ... does it really matter? Both locations look to me as though NO effort has gone into hiding her body...so, do we assume that this was all done in panic?...or was she meant to be found much earlier?

 

[gloriana]

I do think the Police were interested in that boulder, or what might be under it to be precise.

But if it took a crane? to lift boulder from its postion what on earth would they be expecting to see underneath but rubble and cement.
Very good shots Phillb.

I did read somewhere that body may have been left in open position to have been found quickly. (Perhaps while someone was conveniently away?) But a fresh blanket of snow put paid to that.

 

[Phillb]

Right....let's all agree that Jos' body was found SOMEWHERE near the quarry...either right at the entrance...or on a very narrow verge, close to the road. Whichever it is ... does it really matter? Both locations look to me as though NO effort has gone into hiding her body...so, do we assume that this was all done in panic?...or was she meant to be found much earlier?

I think the location is very relevant isn't it? To when it was found, could have been placed there. Timelines count people in or out. If the Quarry was the target, it narrows the field down to who knew about the quarry? The trouble is, we don't know who? Was the body meant to be found with no effort to hide it? Or was it to go in the quarry crusher with a good deal of effort, and never to be seen again, but he/they were spooked and darent return to finish off the job? It's also relevant to try deduce if one or two people might have been involved.

The whole thing is very confusing!
But yes absolutely agree with you Mickey. Were going round in circles on all levels here.
We've so little clues were going over the same old ground.

 

[gloriana]

I'm a bit behind with this I know..it has taken me ages to read all the posts from beginning.
But, looking at Phillb's shots of body location, it seems unlikely that dog-walkers would have spotted body immediately. They surely would have been walking up/down Longwood lane and not near quarry gates unless of course they had to step to one side for a passing car. And surely dogs would have been on a lead considering traffic so no foraging about discovering bodies.
Just a few thoughts.

 

[Nausicaa]

In connection with removing JY's body, the police called on the services of the fire brigade with a small crane. That much is fact. As for the claim that this was necessary, because the body was frozen to the ground or to the nearby lump of masonry, I suggest that it is mere conjecture. The police may have wanted to take the body together with the ground immediately beneath it as an overkill level of forensic precaution. We don't know that the measure was necessary.
It seems to me clearly established that the body was left right next to the quarry gates by a killer who had no intention or expectation of delaying its discovery by more than a few hours. Either he left the body straight after the crime, very probably on the Friday night (17th), and had incredible luck, or else he left it much nearer to the time of its discovery, having kept it meanwhile in some provisional place. The most likely solution to me seems to me to be the latter, with the body being deposited at the Longwood Drive site during the night of Christmas.
The murderer was not Greg Reardon, for reasons already set out here, and if I am right about when the body was dumped, also because he would not have been in any position to do the dumping undetected.

 

[whitedove]

Well spotted Luna 15, missed the Bargainbooze, thanks for the time.

Thanks to Teabreid for more information, you said Jo left work at 5pm, I seen it a few times at 6pm, I can change it if we find its wrong.


Jo’s Timeline

12.30 pm. Jo met B/F for lunch. Lunch was 20 minutes.

6.00 pm. Jo left work with colleagues for drink in the Ram pub.

8.00 pm. Jo left the Ram pub

8.10 pm. Jo was seen on cctv at Waitrose supermarket.

8.20 pm. Jo text Matthew Wood to ask. Where are you, do you fancy
a drink?. Matthew Wood was at a Christmas party.

8.24 pm. Jo visited Bargainbooze, bought 2 bottles of cider.

8.30 pm. Jo rang best friend Rebecca Scott. To arrange to meet up
Christmas eve.

8.40 pm. Jo bought pizza at Tesco Express. (which is about a quarter
of a mile from her flat.


[FONT=&quot]9.20pm [/FONT]Matthew Wood texted back. but there was no reply.

 

[Phillb]

In connection with removing JY's body, the police called on the services of the fire brigade with a small crane. That much is fact. As for the claim that this was necessary, because the body was frozen to the ground or to the nearby lump of masonry, I suggest that it is mere conjecture. The police may have wanted to take the body together with the ground immediately beneath it as an overkill level of forensic precaution. We don't know that the measure was necessary.
It seems to me clearly established that the body was left right next to the quarry gates by a killer who had no intention or expectation of delaying its discovery by more than a few hours. Either he left the body straight after the crime, very probably on the Friday night (17th), and had incredible luck, or else he left it much nearer to the time of its discovery, having kept it meanwhile in some provisional place. The most likely solution to me seems to me to be the latter, with the body being deposited at the Longwood Drive site during the night of Christmas.
The murderer was not Greg Reardon, for reasons already set out here, and if I am right about when the body was dumped, also because he would not have been in any position to do the dumping undetected.

Greg Reardon had the access, the means, and motive (If things were going pear shaped) He also had the 4 hrs timeline of Sunday night to dispose of the body. The one big factor why it seems near improbable he did it, is because Jo was not seen by anyone all weekend. She left no electronic footprint like text, e-mail or internet use. Being seen by no one all weekend is not impossible, but it sure is extremely unlikely. She only had to be seen going to the bins, answer the door, or make calls, but nothing.

Unless they can make a big hole in his (till now cast iron) 'away in Sheffield all weekend' alibi he can't be implicated as rightly states Nausicaa

JMO.

 

[Luna15]

@Whitedove ^^

no probs.... most accounts I have seen put Joanna leaving work at 6.

 

[mikeymot]

I think the location is very relevant isn't it? To when it was found, could have been placed there. Timelines count people in or out. If the Quarry was the target, it narrows the field down to who knew about the quarry? The trouble is, we don't know who? Was the body meant to be found with no effort to hide it? Or was it to go in the quarry crusher with a good deal of effort, and never to be seen again, but he/they were spooked and darent return to finish off the job? It's also relevant to try deduce if one or two people might have been involved.

The whole thing is very confusing!
But yes absolutely agree with you Mickey. Were going round in circles on all levels here.
We've so little clues were going over the same old ground.

I have come to at least one conclusion! If her body was placed 17th/18th/20th..G/R remains 'in the frame'. However if, as many are suggesting, her body was placed after that date....and as late as the 24th..then G/R is def. out of the frame as I don't believe he has been anywhere near the Bristol area since reporting Jo missing....except to place flowers, with her parents. Do believe that the police could be much more helpful by releasing either: the time of death or when the body was placed. Whilst I realise that they may have good reason by witholding these details....if they are genuine in asking for help from the public...then they need to keep the public better informed.

 

[whitedove]

I have posted this before, it gives you an idea what the conditions where like from the 17th December up to Christmas day.

[FONT=&quot]I live about an hour and a half drive from Bristol, and 17th December was very cold, the ground was like rock, I think Bristol had a snow fall around the 18th, it would have drifted up and over anything that was above the ground level, so the body might have just looked like a mound of earth, or snow covered shrubs, if there were six inches of snow fallen, that would take the snow quite a way up the body, so it could look like just a higher part of the path.
After the snow fall, it was freezing, I recorded - 13 c here in the centre of town which is a lot warmer than where Jo was left on the road side, it may have been above freezing for a little while in the day, but not enough to start thawing, in some places it was -25c, it stayed that way up until Christmas when it started thawing in some places.
The snow would have been rock hard just like it was in my garden, I was feeding the birds everyday with porridge, I tried to lift a brick which was just laying on the ground, it would ‘nt budge,I used a hammer, and poured hot water on , it was like it had been super glued to the ground, I can see why they would need a winch to remove a body, you could walk on it and it was solid.[/FONT]

 

[MrZhivago]

I've just found some quarry entrance shots when the road reopened here
http://www.aapone.com.au/Search.aspx?search=QUESTION+TIME&(IMPORTDATE>20100524)

I've got to say it does look to me like the boulder has been lifted out. You can see disturbed soil/grass sods? around it compared to the 2009 Google shot above. The shots on the link are a better indication of the layout today.

But that's about as far as I can go with the body location. I'm still non the wiser :waitasec:

Yep, I'm going with you on this, Phillb.
It's remarkable that even something like this has taken such effort to establish. And that there have been so many misleading different reports along the way. Anyhow, thanks.

Soooo.... Assuming we go for this as the dump site, it looks like the dumper doesn't really know what he's [yep, assumption that it's one and a male] doing.
I'm picturing somebody driving out of town, fairly randomly looking for somewhere to dump. He's driving along that road, which is very narrow and (as many have said) an awful place to stop. He comes to the entrance to the quarry and it looks like an oasis of opportunity compared with the previous stretch. So he, half-panicking, things "Sod it, this will do."
I can't really see a reason why he'd actually be aiming for the quarry and hoping to go in. It's not as if it's a *disused* quarry, anyhow.
It strikes me as reasonable that nobody would spot it earlier, and I'm going for a Friday-night dumping. My reason for this is that this road seems a pretty dreadful place to walk one's dog. It's not pedestrian-friendly at all, and there aren't that many houses nearby.