UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #21

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It boils down to this.

Libby was found in the River Humber 7 weeks or so after the last time she was seen. The last time she was seen was entering or somewhere around the entrance to Oak Road playing fields i.e she was never seen walking back out onto any of the nearby streets or main roads. There is no evidence at all, and there would be, in any direction aside the river, that she ever came out of that area of Oak Road. She either therefore went into the River Hull that night or alternatively left the area somehow hidden, avoided all police/public searches etc and found her way into the river at a later stage, unseen, at any time, by anyone of 300,000+ people or any other camera anywhere in the city. Of which there are numerous.

Mr Relowicz's own testimony was that he last her saw her behind his car, she was screaming for him not to leave. We can deduce, according to him, lit area, pavement , turned around before the end etc etc , he was parked at the bottom end of Beresford Avenue in the close vicinity of Oak Road facing back in the direction of Beverley Road.

There are then only 3 options. 2 possibles according to Mr Relowicz and 1 other. According to Mr Relowicz's testimony it can only be one of two.

1) She must have, for reasons unknown, stopped following Mr Relowicz, or walking in the direction of where she lived where had spent the last couple of hours, the area she knew her friends would be returning to, immediately turned around , coincidentally, or maybe showing sober foresight, just in time to avoid any CCTV cameras (that had shown them arriving), and entered the dark, closed, empty park , cold ,upset and alone and then decided, reasons unknown to anyone who knew her, to put herself in the River Hull. A massive and short timed transformation from her alleged time with Mr Relowicz with whom he states she had been intimate and affectionate . She of course had any opportunity to go to the river between leaving the Welly and this time if this was in her mind.. Despite her drunken state it can be seen from all the evidence that she never left the area in the reasonably immediate vicinity of her address or the local shops/main junctions until Mr Relowicz moderately forced/persuaded her to get into his vehicle. Her mother has testified she was scared of/had an aversion to water. There is no history of harming herself in this manner etc. There is no immediately known reason for her to do this even allowing for her previous issues years hence. There has been testimony to her happiness, doing well at Uni, long term boyfriend whom she had contacted shortly before with no issues etc etc etc She had a happy night until her refusal from the Welly and was exhibiting behaviour that can be seen, in more normal times, on any busy night or weekend when people get drunk. Evidence has been put forward that Libby enjoyed socialising and likely had been drunk before but had never gone near water that we know of. She had lost her keys , had no phone and could therefore no longer contact anyone. This could be a reason for her distress , coupled with the cold night and excess drink. Her maintenance of her position in the general area of her house and mainly on the side of the road that vehicles coming from Welly would arrive perhaps suggest she was waiting for her friends to return and was anxious for them to do so. There is nothing to suggest any suicidal tendencies...she could easily have ran into the road or in front of a bus. CCTV in fact shows her deftly getting out of the way of traffic despite her obvious intoxication.

Mr Relowicz, and others, have confirmed she in fact wanted to go home or see her mum. Mr Relowicz says he was concerned when originally picking her up but felt unable to drop her outside a police station or hospital even (where few questions would be asked) for reasons only known to him.

The next best thing Mr Relowicz thought then, was to drive to a dead end road and a dark, empty , secluded park at gone midnight. A park he had visited a few hours hence and knew well. A park he knew was dark, empty and secluded.

Is this an obvious move or normal behaviour when "concerned" for someone's welfare? Would this help the person in anyway? Particularly a young, vulnerable as admited by Mr Relowicz, girl hardly dressed for a night in the cold, desolate park, who has stressed she in fact wants to go home or see her mum on numerous occasions. Mr Relowicz of course then advises that Libby went through a major transformation of sorts on that very short barely two minutes drive. She became, for reasons unknown, overwhelmingly attracted to him and instigates immediate outdoor sex, again we have no indication of any prior behaviour of this sort, again seems quite out of character. That Mr Relowicz's semen was the only one found tells its own story.

Of course Mr Relowicz admits to returning out of concern for her welfare 2 hours later. But for some reason it never occurs to him, for a second, that she would have continued the direction he says she was walking...following his car...., or to any of the nearby streets or back to where he found her or in the general area she had previously been...he drives straight to the park...and spends a few minutes there (but nowhere else) why did he so strongly believe, against his own prior sight and evidence, she would have abruptly about turned and gone into the park...of which he says they never entered, nor she asked to enter, when together?

2) After Mr Relowicz drove away Libby had the misfortune to run into someone else intent on doing her harm that night and they did whatever they did and put her into the River that night or again hid her away from everything/everybody until some other point they put her in.


The third possibility is that Mr Relowicz is lying.


I know where my money is.
 
Lestrade said:
It boils down to this.

Libby was found in the River Humber 7 weeks or so after the last time she was seen. The last time she was seen was entering or somewhere around the entrance to Oak Road playing fields i.e she was never seen walking back out onto any of the nearby streets or main roads. There is no evidence at all, and there would be, in any direction aside the river, that she ever came out of that area of Oak Road. She either therefore went into the River Hull that night or alternatively left the area somehow hidden, avoided all police/public searches etc and found her way into the river at a later stage, unseen, at any time, by anyone of 300,000+ people or any other camera anywhere in the city. Of which there are numerous.

Mr Relowicz's own testimony was that he last her saw her behind his car, she was screaming for him not to leave. We can deduce, according to him, lit area, pavement , turned around before the end etc etc , he was parked at the bottom end of Beresford Avenue in the close vicinity of Oak Road facing back in the direction of Beverley Road.

There are then only 3 options. 2 possibles according to Mr Relowicz and 1 other. According to Mr Relowicz's testimony it can only be one of two.

1) She must have, for reasons unknown, stopped following Mr Relowicz, or walking in the direction of where she lived where had spent the last couple of hours, the area she knew her friends would be returning to, immediately turned around , coincidentally, or maybe showing sober foresight, just in time to avoid any CCTV cameras (that had shown them arriving), and entered the dark, closed, empty park , cold ,upset and alone and then decided, reasons unknown to anyone who knew her, to put herself in the River Hull. A massive and short timed transformation from her alleged time with Mr Relowicz with whom he states she had been intimate and affectionate . She of course had any opportunity to go to the river between leaving the Welly and this time if this was in her mind.. Despite her drunken state it can be seen from all the evidence that she never left the area in the reasonably immediate vicinity of her address or the local shops/main junctions until Mr Relowicz moderately forced/persuaded her to get into his vehicle. Her mother has testified she was scared of/had an aversion to water. There is no history of harming herself in this manner etc. There is no immediately known reason for her to do this even allowing for her previous issues years hence. There has been testimony to her happiness, doing well at Uni, long term boyfriend whom she had contacted shortly before with no issues etc etc etc She had a happy night until her refusal from the Welly and was exhibiting behaviour that can be seen, in more normal times, on any busy night or weekend when people get drunk. Evidence has been put forward that Libby enjoyed socialising and likely had been drunk before but had never gone near water that we know of. She had lost her keys , had no phone and could therefore no longer contact anyone. This could be a reason for her distress , coupled with the cold night and excess drink. Her maintenance of her position in the general area of her house and mainly on the side of the road that vehicles coming from Welly would arrive perhaps suggest she was waiting for her friends to return and was anxious for them to do so. There is nothing to suggest any suicidal tendencies...she could easily have ran into the road or in front of a bus. CCTV in fact shows her deftly getting out of the way of traffic despite her obvious intoxication.

Mr Relowicz, and others, have confirmed she in fact wanted to go home or see her mum. Mr Relowicz says he was concerned when originally picking her up but felt unable to drop her outside a police station or hospital even (where few questions would be asked) for reasons only known to him.

The next best thing Mr Relowicz thought then, was to drive to a dead end road and a dark, empty , secluded park at gone midnight. A park he had visited a few hours hence and knew well. A park he knew was dark, empty and secluded.

Is this an obvious move or normal behaviour when "concerned" for someone's welfare? Would this help the person in anyway? Particularly a young, vulnerable as admited by Mr Relowicz, girl hardly dressed for a night in the cold, desolate park, who has stressed she in fact wants to go home or see her mum on numerous occasions. Mr Relowicz of course then advises that Libby went through a major transformation of sorts on that very short barely two minutes drive. She became, for reasons unknown, overwhelmingly attracted to him and instigates immediate outdoor sex, again we have no indication of any prior behaviour of this sort, again seems quite out of character. That Mr Relowicz's semen was the only one found tells its own story.

Of course Mr Relowicz admits to returning out of concern for her welfare 2 hours later. But for some reason it never occurs to him, for a second, that she would have continued the direction he says she was walking...following his car...., or to any of the nearby streets or back to where he found her or in the general area she had previously been...he drives straight to the park...and spends a few minutes there (but nowhere else) why did he so strongly believe, against his own prior sight and evidence, she would have abruptly about turned and gone into the park...of which he says they never entered, nor she asked to enter, when together?

2) After Mr Relowicz drove away Libby had the misfortune to run into someone else intent on doing her harm that night and they did whatever they did and put her into the River that night or again hid her away from everything/everybody until some other point they put her in.


The third possibility is that Mr Relowicz is lying.


I know where my money is.
Click to expand...
I can see youve done this before...your not my Barrister are ye? great post!
 
LucyRocket said:
I also wonder if no faith in his translator could facilitate an appeal
Click to expand...

It's kind of a circular question, because if he only has basic English, how does he know the translator is doing a poor job? Anyway, the CPS website says:

"Translation services are currently being provided within police stations and the Courts by 'The Big Word', who are contracted by the Ministry of Justice. Sign language interpretation is provided by Clarion UK.

Interpreters working within the Criminal Justice System should be registered on the National Register of Public Service Interpreters (NRPSI). NRPSI are an independent, voluntary public interest body and their core role is to ensure that standards within the profession are maintained for the benefit of the public and interpreters."

Interpreters | The Crown Prosecution Service
 
this is at the end of the long path, this is the only gate to enter the park after sundown. Interestingly this gate is never locked and aswell - during all the lockdowns, the other gates to the park were locked permanently but this one has always remained open. This gate is a part of the layby that pawel would of parked up
 

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Lestrade said:
It boils down to this.

Libby was found in the River Humber 7 weeks or so after the last time she was seen. The last time she was seen was entering or somewhere around the entrance to Oak Road playing fields i.e she was never seen walking back out onto any of the nearby streets or main roads. There is no evidence at all, and there would be, in any direction aside the river, that she ever came out of that area of Oak Road. She either therefore went into the River Hull that night or alternatively left the area somehow hidden, avoided all police/public searches etc and found her way into the river at a later stage, unseen, at any time, by anyone of 300,000+ people or any other camera anywhere in the city. Of which there are numerous.

Mr Relowicz's own testimony was that he last her saw her behind his car, she was screaming for him not to leave. We can deduce, according to him, lit area, pavement , turned around before the end etc etc , he was parked at the bottom end of Beresford Avenue in the close vicinity of Oak Road facing back in the direction of Beverley Road.

There are then only 3 options. 2 possibles according to Mr Relowicz and 1 other. According to Mr Relowicz's testimony it can only be one of two.

1) She must have, for reasons unknown, stopped following Mr Relowicz, or walking in the direction of where she lived where had spent the last couple of hours, the area she knew her friends would be returning to, immediately turned around , coincidentally, or maybe showing sober foresight, just in time to avoid any CCTV cameras (that had shown them arriving), and entered the dark, closed, empty park , cold ,upset and alone and then decided, reasons unknown to anyone who knew her, to put herself in the River Hull. A massive and short timed transformation from her alleged time with Mr Relowicz with whom he states she had been intimate and affectionate . She of course had any opportunity to go to the river between leaving the Welly and this time if this was in her mind.. Despite her drunken state it can be seen from all the evidence that she never left the area in the reasonably immediate vicinity of her address or the local shops/main junctions until Mr Relowicz moderately forced/persuaded her to get into his vehicle. Her mother has testified she was scared of/had an aversion to water. There is no history of harming herself in this manner etc. There is no immediately known reason for her to do this even allowing for her previous issues years hence. There has been testimony to her happiness, doing well at Uni, long term boyfriend whom she had contacted shortly before with no issues etc etc etc She had a happy night until her refusal from the Welly and was exhibiting behaviour that can be seen, in more normal times, on any busy night or weekend when people get drunk. Evidence has been put forward that Libby enjoyed socialising and likely had been drunk before but had never gone near water that we know of. She had lost her keys , had no phone and could therefore no longer contact anyone. This could be a reason for her distress , coupled with the cold night and excess drink. Her maintenance of her position in the general area of her house and mainly on the side of the road that vehicles coming from Welly would arrive perhaps suggest she was waiting for her friends to return and was anxious for them to do so. There is nothing to suggest any suicidal tendencies...she could easily have ran into the road or in front of a bus. CCTV in fact shows her deftly getting out of the way of traffic despite her obvious intoxication.

Mr Relowicz, and others, have confirmed she in fact wanted to go home or see her mum. Mr Relowicz says he was concerned when originally picking her up but felt unable to drop her outside a police station or hospital even (where few questions would be asked) for reasons only known to him.

The next best thing Mr Relowicz thought then, was to drive to a dead end road and a dark, empty , secluded park at gone midnight. A park he had visited a few hours hence and knew well. A park he knew was dark, empty and secluded.

Is this an obvious move or normal behaviour when "concerned" for someone's welfare? Would this help the person in anyway? Particularly a young, vulnerable as admited by Mr Relowicz, girl hardly dressed for a night in the cold, desolate park, who has stressed she in fact wants to go home or see her mum on numerous occasions. Mr Relowicz of course then advises that Libby went through a major transformation of sorts on that very short barely two minutes drive. She became, for reasons unknown, overwhelmingly attracted to him and instigates immediate outdoor sex, again we have no indication of any prior behaviour of this sort, again seems quite out of character. That Mr Relowicz's semen was the only one found tells its own story.

Of course Mr Relowicz admits to returning out of concern for her welfare 2 hours later. But for some reason it never occurs to him, for a second, that she would have continued the direction he says she was walking...following his car...., or to any of the nearby streets or back to where he found her or in the general area she had previously been...he drives straight to the park...and spends a few minutes there (but nowhere else) why did he so strongly believe, against his own prior sight and evidence, she would have abruptly about turned and gone into the park...of which he says they never entered, nor she asked to enter, when together?

2) After Mr Relowicz drove away Libby had the misfortune to run into someone else intent on doing her harm that night and they did whatever they did and put her into the River that night or again hid her away from everything/everybody until some other point they put her in.


The third possibility is that Mr Relowicz is lying.


I know where my money is.
Click to expand...

Oh dear, I see where your money is, and maybe the jury will see the same. Though we do have to remember we haven't heard all of the evidence yet. But from your post I get that you're getting at;

1. She had the immediate opportunity to go home, was dropped off right outside her door, but chose not to go in, instead obviously had another agenda in mind

2. Her demeanor had been evidenced to change throughout the night. The 2 older men who were returning from darts said that she firstly asked one of them to lie down with her, and then minutes later she became aggressive. She was about to get into their car, but then in an instant became verbally abusive and walked away and sat on the wall.

I can't even bear to pick through the rest. Bless her. But I know what you're getting at.

And welcome
 
Miss_French said:
It's kind of a circular question, because if he only has basic English, how does he know the translator is doing a poor job? Anyway, the CPS website says:

"Translation services are currently being provided within police stations and the Courts by 'The Big Word', who are contracted by the Ministry of Justice. Sign language interpretation is provided by Clarion UK.

Interpreters working within the Criminal Justice System should be registered on the National Register of Public Service Interpreters (NRPSI). NRPSI are an independent, voluntary public interest body and their core role is to ensure that standards within the profession are maintained for the benefit of the public and interpreters."

Interpreters | The Crown Prosecution Service
Click to expand...

Exactly @Miss_French. He could feel his case isn't being put across fairly by his language difficulties, but he could also say that his case wasn't put across fairly by the translator not relaying his answers accurately
 
Corneileus said:
this is at the end of the long path, this is the only gate to enter the park after sundown. Interestingly this gate is never locked and aswell - during all the lockdowns, the other gates to the park were locked permanently but this one has always remained open. This gate is a part of the layby that pawel would of parked up
Click to expand...

It's only accessible by foot?
 
ok so the grass verges. note the bollards in the distance to the layby entrance. These bollards are new last year not long ago and were not there at the time of the said crime. Pawel says he drove here and parked up and so fourth
 

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