UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #21

[HullGirl72]

I don't think an expert testifying in court would get away with inferring anything by tone, or that isn't specifically stated, or leaving anything to guesswork. For one thing the defence would be all over it, implying something extra that can't be stated as a definitive opinion, and for another the court record, if it went to appeal, would not bear out a tone of voice or inference. In my opinion.

I understand that
I think I’m not explaining it well
I meant hearing it it’s got to be a better indication than just reading it.

 

[elliefant]

I don’t think any inference was being made that drowning could be ruled out.

It was during the defence questioning, and they would obviously hope that drowning was stated as likeliest because that would mean PR left Libby alive, so would be pushing in that direction. The expert witness stated that he could not say drowning was likely cause of death. He was also clear that he could not say others were likely cause of death. He could not label any of the possible causes as the likely one.

I will try to find the link but it will take some searching through the testimony...

eta : I’m sorry, I’ve looked but can’t find it. I didn’t imagine it but please do feel free to ignore my post in absence of a link.

 

[Newthoughts]

me too
I think he is just thick
today trial just showed he didn't plan anything it was just impulse
I still think 7,5min is very short time to rape kill and dispose body ,especially when we taking about someone that primitive like PR
People who planning attack usually carry weapon with them (hammer, knife ,use heavy stones to silience they victim etc) he didn't plan it ,he just raped and escaped and then was thinking what next ,he came back but not because he knew about tide but because he is just simple stupid

In what way do you think it's too short? Genuine question cos I'm interested in why people think this.

His stories are definitely lies, the alternatives seem unlikely and we're running out of options.

 

[ChiCubs2016]

If they had any reason to believe it wasn’t possible he wouldn’t be on trial for murder.
They have stated only PR left.

I agree. I have stated several times I do not have a problem with the timing. I was just curious.

 

[CrimeAway]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

bodies recovered from water :: www.forensicmed.co.uk

(WARNING: link includes post mortem photos)
Postmortem Changes: Overview, Definitions, Scene Findings

(WARNING: link includes post mortem photos)
Decomposition – The Forensics Library

(ETA links)

 

[tigerowl]

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I'm also local. Lived Hull all my life and within a mile or so of the river and Beresford for the last nearly 30 years. That is my interest in this case too. I know ORPF pretty well and I also cannot get with the timing and from what I have heard so far it leads me to believe there is no evidence he murdered her. Yes he raped her, yes he was probably the last person to see her alive and yes, he is ultimately responsible as he took her there in the first place when she was clearly in a state and vulnerable. But getting from the gate to the river and doing everything in between and back in 7.5 mins does not work for me.

 

[Newthoughts]

me too
I think he is just thick
today trial just showed he didn't plan anything it was just impulse
I still think 7,5min is very short time to rape kill and dispose body ,especially when we taking about someone that primitive like PR
People who planning attack usually carry weapon with them (hammer, knife ,use heavy stones to silience they victim etc) he didn't plan it ,he just raped and escaped and then was thinking what next ,he came back but not because he knew about tide but because he is just simple stupid

Being thick doesn't mean he didn't plan it. Plans don't have to be brilliant and I'm sure there are lots of thick murderers in prison.

His plan could be as simple as here's a dark park with a river. Heres a vulnerable girl. I will take her to my car then drive without hesitation to the dark park with the river because afterwards I can put her in the river.

No plan would be here's a vulnerable girl standing at the entrance to a dark housing development I will attack her here but I really don't know what to do after

Even then scenario two could still be deemed murder I think.

 

[DiploRed]

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I'm also local. Lived Hull all my life and within a mile or so of the river and Beresford for the last nearly 30 years. That is my interest in this case too. I know ORPF pretty well and I also cannot get with the timing and from what I have heard so far it leads me to believe there is no evidence he murdered her. Yes he raped her, yes he was probably the last person to see her alive and yes, he is ultimately responsible as he took her there in the first place when she was clearly in a state and vulnerable. But getting from the gate to the river and doing everything in between and back in 7.5 mins does not work for me.

But then his story and how he never entered the fields doesn’t add up either.

I reckon the timing is entirely possible if he chased her in and caught up with her near the river. If he parked his car with the passenger seat facing the entrance gate then the easiest way for her to run is into the fields.

 

[Newthoughts]

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I'm also local. Lived Hull all my life and within a mile or so of the river and Beresford for the last nearly 30 years. That is my interest in this case too. I know ORPF pretty well and I also cannot get with the timing and from what I have heard so far it leads me to believe there is no evidence he murdered her. Yes he raped her, yes he was probably the last person to see her alive and yes, he is ultimately responsible as he took her there in the first place when she was clearly in a state and vulnerable. But getting from the gate to the river and doing everything in between and back in 7.5 mins does not work for me.

The prosecution said About 350 metres. That doesn't strike me as a long distance. He's a butcher - they hoik carcasses around lots.

He's full of adrenaline.

You can't deny he's energetic given he was out prowling a few hours after.

Plus the alternative is just weird. Libby turns around to avoid a brightly lit street to choose a dark one then enters a dark park and gets across to the river. All after having been raped.

 

[tigerowl]

But then his story and how he never entered the fields doesn’t add up either.

I reckon the timing is entirely possible if he chased her in and caught up with her near the river. If he parked his car with the passenger seat facing the entrance gate then the easiest way for her to run is into the fields.

I realise this is a very unpopular opinion, but I'm not entirely sure I disbelieve him on that bit. I think it's perfectly possible he did rape her where he says he did and never entered the park. I also think it is possible Libby walked off in the direction of her home and then did an about turn - just like she had done multiple times that night already.

My point is more that unless it has not been reported, there is absolutely no evidence that he murdered her or put her in the river. It is circumstantial as he took her to that area and was violent towards her. But the circumstantial does not add up for me because of the time frame. I note your point about her running away from him and agree that does make it slightly more likely but I still think difficult and still no supporting evidence. I'm happy to have pointed out to me what I may have missed.

 

[Newthoughts]

I realise this is a very unpopular opinion, but I'm not entirely sure I disbelieve him on that bit. I think it's perfectly possible he did rape her where he says he did and never entered the park. I also think it is possible Libby walked off in the direction of her home and then did an about turn - just like she had done multiple times that night already.

My point is more that unless it has not been reported, there is absolutely no evidence that he murdered her or put her in the river. It is circumstantial as he took her to that area and was violent towards her. But the circumstantial does not add up for me because of the time frame. I note your point about her running away from him and agree that does make it slightly more likely but I still think difficult and still no supporting evidence. I'm happy to have pointed out to me what I may have missed.

Well on point one regarding belief - this is story number 5. Why do you believe this one but not the others.

Point 2 what exactly is wrong with the timing?

 

[HullGirl72]

Well on point one regarding belief - this is story number 5. Why do you believe this one but not the others.

Point 2 what exactly is wrong with the timing?

I think anyone who thinks the timing is too short should wait till after midnight, turn off every light and have no sound on anywhere, then set the timer for 7.5 minutes.
It’s a lot longer than you imagine.

 

[DiploRed]

I realise this is a very unpopular opinion, but I'm not entirely sure I disbelieve him on that bit. I think it's perfectly possible he did rape her where he says he did and never entered the park. I also think it is possible Libby walked off in the direction of her home and then did an about turn - just like she had done multiple times that night already.

My point is more that unless it has not been reported, there is absolutely no evidence that he murdered her or put her in the river. It is circumstantial as he took her to that area and was violent towards her. But the circumstantial does not add up for me because of the time frame. I note your point about her running away from him and agree that does make it slightly more likely but I still think difficult and still no supporting evidence. I'm happy to have pointed out to me what I may have missed.

If she walked in the direction of her home I’m actually certain this would have been picked up by CCTV that was mentioned as being at the back of a house but as the details on this footage is very unclear we’ll just say she did, okay.

So she walks in the direction required to get to her house which is well lit and there are plenty of houses. Suddenly, she just decides to turn the opposite direction and walk back to the area she had just been raped in and for some reason walks into the very dark fields? It’s possible but I don’t think that’s a more likely theory.

 

[tigerowl]

Well on point one regarding belief - this is story number 5. Why do you believe this one but not the others.

Point 2 what exactly is wrong with the timing?

1. I find it more plausible than the other lies. A tenfoot with no people around and his easiest opportunity to rape her. No need to go into the park to do what he came for.
2. Do you know ORPF personally? I don't mean this snottily. I just think that if you have actually walked that bit of the park regularly and are familiar with the river access there you couldn't not have an issue with the timings.

 

[HullGirl72]

1. I find it more plausible than the other lies. A tenfoot with no people around and his easiest opportunity to rape her. No need to go into the park to do what he came for.
2. Do you know ORPF personally? I don't mean this snottily. I just think that if you have actually walked that bit of the park regularly and are familiar with the river access there you couldn't not have an issue with the timings.

I understand that
But the police have charged him with murder so they can’t have a problem with timings.

 

[LucyRocket]

That was it thankyou. So the second syllable is clearly in connection with his out of control urges and the first part sound English to me. Chat. Not sure if that is text or spoken but surely its in english

Despite the name, you don't actually have to speak at all. It's in the member's interest to keep you online, so they will make it very easy

 

[Offaly]

This has been a bone of contention on here from the off
People saying he couldn’t progress from a flasher/voyeur to a murderer
But the voyeurism and stealing underwear is exactly where they start.
Any research on any sexually motivated murderer will tell you this.

And he had followed two women in one of his crimes - that takes some nerve. Also the pulling the letterbox out - that shows how strong he was, what a strange thing to do, almost like his frustrations building up. What would have happened I wonder if during one of his burglaries he had come across a lone female in the house? It definitely seems to have been escalating. He has raped poor Libby and while trying to subdue her, has got annoyed as she scratched and hurt him, and put his hand over her mouth/nose - hence the saliva in her mouth he spoke about. I'd be surprised if the rape lasted more than one minute which leaves six minutes or so to dispose of her body. It's like he was on some kind of rampage that night, thankfully noone else was attacked by him that night. I would think it is very likely he has raped before.

 

[HullGirl72]

And he had followed two women in one of his crimes - that takes some nerve. Also the pulling the letterbox out - that shows how strong he was, what a strange thing to do, almost like his frustrations building up. What would have happened I wonder if during one of his burglaries he had come across a lone female in the house? It definitely seems to have been escalating. He has raped poor Libby and while trying to subdue her, has got annoyed as she scratched and hurt him, and put his hand over her mouth/nose - hence the saliva in her mouth he spoke about. I'd be surprised if the rape lasted more than one minute which leaves six minutes or so to dispose of her body. It's like he was on some kind of rampage that night, thankfully noone else was attacked by him that night. I would think it is very likely he has raped before.

I think you’re right
If you were very drunk and you only had a vague recollection the next day you’d be reluctant to go to the Police.

 

[stephaniejanes]

And he had followed two women in one of his crimes - that takes some nerve. Also the pulling the letterbox out - that shows how strong he was, what a strange thing to do, almost like his frustrations building up. What would have happened I wonder if during one of his burglaries he had come across a lone female in the house? It definitely seems to have been escalating. He has raped poor Libby and while trying to subdue her, has got annoyed as she scratched and hurt him, and put his hand over her mouth/nose - hence the saliva in her mouth he spoke about. I'd be surprised if the rape lasted more than one minute which leaves six minutes or so to dispose of her body. It's like he was on some kind of rampage that night, thankfully noone else was attacked by him that night. I would think it is very likely he has raped before.

Agree, the sexual assault itself was probably really quick. The prosecution raised the point he "finished" when pleasuring himself later that night within seconds... so you're probably looking at him having 6+ mins to do the travel back and forth from car to river. Unsure we will ever truly know where the attack happened, I tend to think within the park.

 

[HongKongPhooey]

me too
I think he is just thick
today trial just showed he didn't plan anything it was just impulse
I still think 7,5min is very short time to rape kill and dispose body ,especially when we taking about someone that primitive like PR
People who planning attack usually carry weapon with them (hammer, knife ,use heavy stones to silience they victim etc) he didn't plan it ,he just raped and escaped and then was thinking what next ,he came back but not because he knew about tide but because he is just simple stupid

Respectfully, I don't agree with your point of view but it is always interesting to read different opinions.

I think it is unusual for someone not to take their phone with them. You dont need to be a genius to know that your mobile phone will place you in certain locations at certain times (you just need to watch a bit of TV). For me, this more than suggests premeditation.

Also, carrying condoms with him tells us that he was preplanning his crimes generally.

So I believe he did pre plan this to an extent. That in itself obviously isnt needed for a murder conviction anyway - as per previous posts re intent/murder etc. But I think it tells us more about him.

He has the presence of mind to adapt his lies to work in with the prosecution evidence too. Today, he says Libby was screaming at the time screams were heard for instance. I dont personally think he is stupid, but I do think he is a very dangerous predator and a natural born liar, if not a very good one.

JMO