UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 *ARREST* #18

[Mommysleuth11]

I keep coming back in my head to the sainsburys manager who was closing up around midnight who thought Libby was shouting 'don't leave me' or similar. Was this to PR? It doesn't seem to fit with any of the other evidence we heard from witnesses who say she was agitated perhaps almost hostile to their offers of assistance.

 

[Offaly]

354.9 metres from oak road to the river. Over 700 metres there and back - presuming this refers to the most direct route. Is there a pathway? 354.9 metres guiding, dragging, fighting, carrying...... in the dark, in the snow, if a footpath may have been icy too - I know they will spend more time analysing this time frame and it become clearer but it really is very puzzling.

Another thought: I don’t think we can take anything he says for truth, especially where the rape took place.

Do you think maybe the rape took place elsewhere (in the car, endsleigh centre?) and he took her to oak rd to kill and dump the body only?

I keep coming back in my head to the sainsburys manager who was closing up around midnight who thought Libby was shouting 'don't leave me' or similar. Was this to PR? It doesn't seem to fit with any of the other evidence we heard from witnesses who say she was agitated perhaps almost hostile to their offers of assistance.

Yes me too. Is this something the defence are going to use I wonder? She was saying it to PR?

 

[marshy73]

Im speaking here through drink but here goes. If PR speaks to his lawyer/solicitor (if he is guilty) and he admits he is guilty (to his solicitor)can his solicitor still fight his case knowing he’s done it????

 

[ChiCubs2016]

Im speaking here through drink but here goes. If PR speaks to his lawyer/solicitor (if he is guilty) and he admits he is guilty (to his solicitor)can his solicitor still fight his case knowing he’s done it????

Love love love “speaking here through drink”.

 

[Loobyloo]

I keep coming back in my head to the sainsburys manager who was closing up around midnight who thought Libby was shouting 'don't leave me' or similar. Was this to PR? It doesn't seem to fit with any of the other evidence we heard from witnesses who say she was agitated perhaps almost hostile to their offers of assistance.

Hopefully the manager will be called as a witness. Perhaps what was heard was 'Don't touch me' or 'Don't come near me', which would be consistent with the other reports.

Re. PR's brief 3rd visit to the park - perhaps he had already put her into the water & this was to check whether the body had been washed away (as he hoped).

 

[Marulinka]

Im speaking here through drink but here goes. If PR speaks to his lawyer/solicitor (if he is guilty) and he admits he is guilty (to his solicitor)can his solicitor still fight his case knowing he’s done it????

Yes the lawyer can still help him for example argue diminished responsibility etc. But from ethical poit of view (which is what I think you are asking about) I think its impossible to control so its really down to the layer's moral compass... Anybody here please correct me if I am wrong just MOO

 

[Mommysleuth11]

I dont believe he can say he is innocent as such.

How can you defend someone you know is guilty?
Copied from above link,
"It's obviously unethical and illegal for a lawyer to deceive a court knowingly. If my client tells me he's guilty, I can't say he's innocent in court. I cannot call him to give evidence that I know is false or I would be a party to his perjury."

 

[Mommysleuth11]

Hopefully the manager will be called as a witness. Perhaps what was heard was 'Don't touch me' or 'Don't come near me', which would be consistent with the other reports.

Re. PR's brief 3rd visit to the park - perhaps he had already put her into the water & this was to check whether the body had been washed away (as he hoped).

I'm pretty sure what was "heard" was dont leave me. But you raise an awfully good point, to me, that what was "heard" wasn't necessarily what was said! Its entirely possible the manager misheard or misreported what was said. Remembering eye witness testimony is often not completely reliable just down to different people seeing/hearing/perceiving situations differently. I would like to think they will be called to the stand.

 

[ChiCubs2016]

Yes the lawyer can still help him for example argue diminished responsibility etc. But from ethical poit of view (which is what I think you are asking about) I think its impossible to control so its really down to the layer's moral compass... Anybody here please correct me if I am wrong just MOO

I dont believe he can say he is innocent as such.

How can you defend someone you know is guilty?
Copied from above link,
"It's obviously unethical and illegal for a lawyer to deceive a court knowingly. If my client tells me he's guilty, I can't say he's innocent in court. I cannot call him to give evidence that I know is false or I would be a party to his perjury."

Also, in the US an attorney would have to ask the court for permission to be released and would have to say why but could not because of attorney/client privilege. The Attorney would have to go above and beyond in their defense so the client could not claim inadequate counsel. So a tricky situation. But I believe many defense attorneys know if they have a guilty client with or without being told directly. They has chosen their field with good intentions and of course are going to have to defend guilty parties. It is not ideal but is the best for a fair judicial system. MOO
Innocent until proven guilty and all that jazz! Hard to swallow in cases like this though. MOO

 

[ForensicToxicologist]

Also, in the US an attorney would have to ask the court for permission to be released and would have to say why but could not because of attorney/client privilege. The Attorney would have to go above and beyond in their defense so the client could not claim inadequate counsel. So a tricky situation. But I believe many defense attorneys know if they have a guilty client with or without being told directly. They has chosen their field with good intentions and of course are going to have to defend guilty parties. It is not ideal but is the best for a fair judicial system. MOO
Innocent until proven guilty and all that jazz! Hard to swallow in cases like this though. MOO

When they know (either by experience or confession) that their client is guilty I’ve known many defense attorneys to say “it’s not my job to get you off. It’s my job to ensure you have a fair and adequate trial.” This of course depends on the attorneys reputation and morals.

 

[Newthoughts]

I am 100% certain the defense will state it was consensual and Libby went with PR willingly. However I think the witnesses who tried to help Libby will prove she was not in any shape to consent. She was drunk, wobbly on her feet, aggravated, and unwilling to accept help. I do not believe there was any consensual intimacy at anytime. PR and the Defense can try but I think the jury will see through their shenanigans.

I agree 100 %. And I add that the police caution given when he was arrested will have said 'it may harm your defence if you do not mention something when questioned something that you later rely on in court' so if it is now his defence his earlier lies will come back to haunt him.

 

[Newthoughts]

I keep coming back in my head to the sainsburys manager who was closing up around midnight who thought Libby was shouting 'don't leave me' or similar. Was this to PR? It doesn't seem to fit with any of the other evidence we heard from witnesses who say she was agitated perhaps almost hostile to their offers of assistance.

Yes thought he heard something like that.

Could it have been just leave me? Or leave me.

Sometimes if you don't catch exact words you make a best guess and 'don't' would fit couples arguing upset person scenario if you were unaware of what was really happening.

The poster who raised the case of Kitty Genovese earlier might be able to throw light on that

 

[Newthoughts]

Do you think maybe the rape took place elsewhere (in the car, endsleigh centre?) and he took her to oak rd to kill and dump the body only?

At the end of the prosecution, just after the DNA evidence was mentioned the prosecutor said he now believed the defendant would admit to sexual intercourse after he'd driven to Oak Road so I think it's highly probable that the rape happened there in the park and IMO was part of the reason for the screams heard

 

[Newthoughts]

I think the answer is sometimes. Because its a tidal river it varies so much, closer to the town centre for example it swings between brimming close to the bank and a trickle down the middle of the mud flats. Its actually quite something to see if you cross the river at various different times. I think the high tide that night/morning was around 2.30am. Its also pretty full of silt/mud and rarely (if ever to my knowledge) dredged so it can build up areas where its more shallow.

I find it interesting that the timing of high tide just so happens to coincide with PRs third trip to the park!

To make sure the body had gone? Or to place it in the water at a far better time for him?.

Are there shallow-ish areas of that river? How deep is it?

Just to add to @Mommysleuth11 answer. I've not seen the river in the park but the difference in the town centre is incredible as us the difference in the Humber Estuary.

If high tide was 2.30 that morning then IMO there are very good reasons for him going back to the park at that time. To either make sure the evidence was being cleared or to put the body in at a better time.

 

[JusticeDT]

I think the Sainsburys manager's recollection is a key piece of evidence that the defence will use and I think that is why the prosecution brought it up now so as to the soften evidential blow. Perhaps she did say don't leave me or similar but perhaps she said it because he had led her to believe she was in danger from someone else and he was looking out for her. I wondered if she was shouting whilst he was sat biding his time for other car and bike to leave in his car on that cctv released initially and she started to panic that she wasnt safe hence saying dont leave me. Alternatively, may be the manager missed one key word e.g. "Don't touch, leave me"

I also wonder about the possibility of his posing as a taxi driver when he spoke to her and so when she eventually walks to the car and gets there and realises it's not a taxi she tries to pull away from him but he has her wrist.

 

[mrjitty]

Im speaking here through drink but here goes. If PR speaks to his lawyer/solicitor (if he is guilty) and he admits he is guilty (to his solicitor)can his solicitor still fight his case knowing he’s done it????

No.

 

[mrjitty]

Yes the lawyer can still help him for example argue diminished responsibility etc. But from ethical poit of view (which is what I think you are asking about) I think its impossible to control so its really down to the layer's moral compass... Anybody here please correct me if I am wrong just MOO

A lawyer is an officer of the court, and thus may not present a version that they know is inconsistent with their clients own confessions.

So if PR admitted to his lawyer that he is guilty, the lawyer would have to withdraw, or require that PR admit in Court a version where he accepts responsibility.

This is quite a key aspect of a lawyers responsibilities in dealing with clients in civil and criminal matters. Lawyers cannot participate in advancing evidence/versions which they know are false.

 

[JusticeDT]

I agree with this. Solicitors and barristers are officers of the court and have to uphold the integrity of the profession and rule of law. If a criminal admitted guilt to the lawyer and instructed the lawyer to put in a not guilty plea then the lawyer could not do so without falling foul of the rules of conduct.

A slightly different point however is that it should be remembered that clients do not always follow their lawyers advice and their instructions might differ from the advice. For example the defence team might advise the client that if they are found guilty after a not guilty plea the sentence will be harsher. They might say the evidence is stacked against you and we cannot see a jury believing your version of events. However, the client may still say that is my defence and I instruct you to put forward that defence.

Without the availability of decent defence lawyers there would never truly be justice. We want criminals convicted after a fair trial for only then can justice ever truly be served.

 

[martenwearer]

I know the Sainsbury’s manager had saw her shouting in the cars direction, but is there a possibility she could have been shouting “don’t leave me” at the Sainsbury’s manager? I’m not sure how clear it would be

Also if she was extremely drunk, I imagine this would be slurred?

 

[JosieJo]

I think the Sainsburys manager's recollection is a key piece of evidence that the defence will use and I think that is why the prosecution brought it up now so as to the soften evidential blow. Perhaps she did say don't leave me or similar but perhaps she said it because he had led her to believe she was in danger from someone else and he was looking out for her. I wondered if she was shouting whilst he was sat biding his time for other car and bike to leave in his car on that cctv released initially and she started to panic that she wasnt safe hence saying dont leave me. Alternatively, may be the manager missed one key word e.g. "Don't touch, leave me"

I also wonder about the possibility of his posing as a taxi driver when he spoke to her and so when she eventually walks to the car and gets there and realises it's not a taxi she tries to pull away from him but he has her wrist.

This makes a lot of sense i think the defence will try and use it to show willingness to get in a car with him

Luckily I think him sitting waiting for the other car to go will counteract this

I imagine he was promising her a lift home during the time he was with her so she was confused when he walked off