UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 *ARREST* #18

[kate2931]

I'm a longtime lurker on the Libby threads. The case seemed to really strike a chord with me, being quite local to the area. I have really enjoyed all your input and reading your extremely insightful comments. I just wanted to add a bit of info my husband told me last night as I was reading him the trial details. He is a psychologist so I was interested in his opinion on PR. One of the things which has upset me most was the guy who heard the screams/witnessed PR running back from the playing fields. Why didn't he phone the police? I can only surmise he was used to hearing noises like that...I remember at the time people on here were speculating about fox noises? My husband told me to look up Kitty Genovese, whose murder (or rather the inactions of the witnesses) is covered on pretty much every psychology course. It gave rise to the 'bystander effect' phenomena. Quite an interesting case.

Hoping the trial can continue tomorrow but looking doubtful at present with below-zero temperatures here in Sheffield tonight so much of the snow will probably remain. There's another warning in place for heavy snow on Saturday too. They might just sack it off until Monday but I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Hi & welcome
I remember watching the documentary about Kitty. I too find it hard to understand as to why the witness didn’t phone the police, especially after seeing pr flee... very sad.

 

[Spy Versus Spy]

Catching up.........

 

[Cherwell]

The physical evidence of rape is there along with his new claim that it happened in the park so he's clearly guilty of rape in that time frame. She's highly unlikely to have drowned so clearly he's guilty of more if she ended up in water.

His past convictions show he's a pervert who gets off on fear.

The poster wasn't questioning that there was a rape, just explaining what they meant by undressing.

 

[wilkela]

The physical evidence of rape is there along with his new claim that it happened in the park so he's clearly guilty of rape in that time frame. She's highly unlikely to have drowned so clearly he's guilty of more if she ended up in water.

His past convictions show he's a pervert who gets off on fear.

I'm not discussing with the fact that they found his sperm inside her ,he probably rape her if they found his sperm in her body but I doubt he was able rape her ,kill her and back to the car in 7,5 mins plus disposed her body in 4 min during third visit
Your thinking is very simple pervert = murder
For me it is not definitely clear that he kill her ,no in that short period of time

 

[Newthoughts]

The poster wasn't questioning that there was a rape, just explaining what they meant by undressing.

Actually they were querying how could he rape her with the problem of undressing quickly and I was responding that clearly he did because the physical evidence is there so the point is moot.

 

[Spy Versus Spy]

I'm not discussing with the fact that they found his sperm inside her ,he probably rape her if they found his sperm in her body but I doubt he was able rape her ,kill her and back to the car in 7,5 mins plus disposed her body in 4 min during third visit
Your thinking is very simple pervert = murder
For me it is not definitely clear that he kill her ,no in that short period of time

I think a lot of people have some issue with the timings, and have done since the beginning of the case.

Its a highly circumstantial case and its going to be interesting to see if there is enough logic and plausibilty to convince the jury to overcome reasonable doubt

 

[wilkela]

Actually they were querying how could he rape her with the problem of undressing quickly and I was responding that clearly he did because the physical evidence is there so the point is moot.

no I didn't
I just saying 7.5 mins it is very short time to rape and kill someone(drag her to specific place and run back to the car all in 7,5 minutes) ,especially if you have to undress yourself and someone who is fighting with you .
He could rape her fine but it is not obvious for me that he killed her
ps. English isn't my first language(I never learn it at school ) so I apologise if I sound little bit strange sometimes ;-)

 

[Skigh]

I'm not discussing with the fact that they found his sperm inside her ,he probably rape her if they found his sperm in her body but I doubt he was able rape her ,kill her and back to the car in 7,5 mins plus disposed her body in 4 min during third visit
Your thinking is very simple pervert = murder
For me it is not definitely clear that he kill her ,no in that short period of time

He is much more than a pervert. He is an extremely dangerous sexual predator. In my opinion if he had not attacked Libby, it would have been some other girl unfortunate enough to cross his path.

 

[Newthoughts]

I'm not discussing with the fact that they found his sperm inside her ,he probably rape her if they found his sperm in her body but I doubt he was able rape her ,kill her and back to the car in 7,5 mins plus disposed her body in 4 min during third visit
Your thinking is very simple pervert = murder
For me it is not definitely clear that he kill her ,no in that short period of time

Probably rape? I'd say the rape is a given as he was nowhere near when she was sober and capable of consent.

PR was known for masturbating in public places to frighten women I'd imagine he could remove the necessary clothing quickly

My thinking is not pervert = murder my thinking is that the prosecution have evidence that they both entered the park and only he left it. That she was found weeks later in the river.

That scientists say she did not show the typical signs of drowning making it highly unlikely she had fallen into it herself and far more likely she was put into it whilst dead or dying.

That, whilst it is highly likely she was hypothermic, she did not show post mortem signs of having died of hypothermia so that too is unlikely.

Given the short time frame and the timing of the screams the most likely explanation I can think of is that the prosecution entered - that she was killed as result of that sexual assault.



I am interested in hearing your arguments against that evidence as you need to find alternatives to explain that evidence?

 

[Newthoughts]

I think a lot of people have some issue with the timings, and have done since the beginning of the case.

Its a highly circumstantial case and its going to be interesting to see if there is enough logic and plausibilty to convince the jury to overcome reasonable doubt

I don't think DNA and CCTV are circumstantial I think they're hard physical evidence. Along with witness statements

Likewise the scientific evidence - whilst not totally conclusive because nothing in science is - shows it is highly, highly likely that Libby was dead or dying when she entered the water.

Plus this trial is predicted to last 5 weeks so I suspect a lot more detailed scientific evidence will emerge along the way.

And PR has already has to change his story to accommodate the physical evidence of rape which I think helps circumstantial evidence

 

[Mommysleuth11]

no I didn't
I just saying 7.5 mins it is very short time to rape and kill someone(drag her to specific place and run back to the car all in 7,5 minutes) ,especially if you have to undress yourself and someone who is fighting with you .
He could rape her fine but it is not obvious for me that he killed her
ps. English isn't my first language(I never learn it at school ) so I apologise if I sound little bit strange sometimes ;-)

I hope this doesn't come across as any kind of disrespect because that is definitely not my intention, I did notice as you confirmed that English didn't appear your first language. Can I ask are you from the Polish community and if so do you know PR on a personal level?

I do agree re the time frame seeming too short to accomplish all that he is accused of, I cannot seem to make it fit. Also baring in mind that certain paths need to be taken through the park as some areas were/are blocked by thick bracken/undergrowth and or buildings. So the distance covered is more than, as the crow flies.

At the beginning I assumed he had been in the area for hours, up until 2.30/3 am perhaps.
I do believe either way he was ultimately responsible for her death, I'm just unsure at this point if he actually had the time to rape / murder and dispose of her body, given we know he did definitely rape her, I just don't know any more.

 

[Vera_dci]

I dont think there was enough time to drag Libby I think he must have carried her over his shoulder. There is a good picture of him on this link and to me he looks quite stocky and able to carry libby quite easily. Also check out his suit , it looks like he's wearing his wedding suit to his trial.

The family man whose sinister double life hid a dark secret

 

[Mommysleuth11]

I dont think there was enough time to drag Libby I think he must have carried her over his shoulder. There is a good picture of him on this link and to me he looks quite stocky and able to carry libby quite easily. Also check out his suit , it looks like he's wearing his wedding suit to his trial.

The family man whose sinister double life hid a dark secret

Thats a very good point to make, especially given he would be pumped full of adrenaline at the time.

Although I still think the timings are incredibly tight.

 

[Vera_dci]

Yes i have to agree. Hopefully the prosecution have a ace up their sleeve that can prove this to be possible.

 

[Spy Versus Spy]

I dont think there was enough time to drag Libby I think he must have carried her over his shoulder. There is a good picture of him on this link and to me he looks quite stocky and able to carry libby quite easily. Also check out his suit , it looks like he's wearing his wedding suit to his trial.

The family man whose sinister double life hid a dark secret

I do wonder if the screams were not just as LS was being attacked but also as she was being carried. This could help a little with timeline maybe?Maybe the scratches to PR were also while LS was being carried rather than being attacked when he wouldve found it much easier to subdue any defensive physicality from LS?

Some of the gym pictures are from an earlier time iirc? He'd certainly 'put on a bit of Pudding' as they say where Im from?

 

[JosieJo]

There is no doubt this "man" is a vile dangerous predator and likely capable of killing ...I have no doubt he took her into the park and raped her ...but..as the cause of death could not be identified ..and drowning..even if unlikely..can not be ruled out by the pathologist I'm going to need more info myself to be sure he killed her...especially because of the very short amount of time in the park ..obviously there will be a lot more info to come.
He would have lied about what happened if he had raped or raped and killed so the lies are not unique to murder.
There is no doubt in my mind he "killed" her even if it was by raping her and putting her in harms way if not by his own hands at the time of sexual assault

 

[Lucy6226]

We already know he was in a state of heightened sexual arousal. The rape probably didn't last long, given the history of exposing himself and ejaculating quickly after. Underwear can be moved to the side...he might have not worn any for easy access. His *advertiser censored* site visits are quite short too. So if he tried to quiet her screams whilst raping her, the death and rape would have probably happened at the same time. Leaving the rest of the time to get to the river. 7.5mins is more than long enough imo.

 

[JosieJo]

We already know he was in a state of heightened sexual arousal. The rape probably didn't last long, given the history of exposing himself and ejaculating quickly after. Underwear can be moved to the side...he might have not worn any for easy access. His *advertiser censored* site visits are quite short too. So if he tried to quiet her screams whilst raping her, the death and rape would have probably happened at the same time. Leaving the rest of the time to get to the river. 7.5mins is more than long enough imo.

It would have took at least 1.5 min to get her out of the car and far enough into the park ...say 2 min for the rape ..1 min to realise she was dead ...3 min to drag or pick her up and get to the river ..2 min to run back ?...even at incredible speed as this we are up to 9.5 min??? I really struggle how 7.5 min is more than enough..the distance from the car to the river in the snow is fair

 

[Marulinka]

Actually we don't know whether anyone called the police. I seem to remember there were rumours at the time that the police were called but either didn't respond, or only drove by some time later, too late. But let's be realistic, the police have enough to do with actual crime. Some towns have groups of volunteers who go out at night to assist clubbers who are incapacitated. A shame there wasn't such an organisation in Hull.

I seem to recall that too

Yes i have to agree. Hopefully the prosecution have a ace up their sleeve that can prove this to be possible.

I think there might be reconstruction in front of the jury in the actual park perhaps?

 

[wilkela]

I hope this doesn't come across as any kind of disrespect because that is definitely not my intention, I did notice as you confirmed that English didn't appear your first language. Can I ask are you from the Polish community and if so do you know PR on a personal level?

I do agree re the time frame seeming too short to accomplish all that he is accused of, I cannot seem to make it fit. Also baring in mind that certain paths need to be taken through the park as some areas were/are blocked by thick bracken/undergrowth and or buildings. So the distance covered is more than, as the crow flies.

At the beginning I assumed he had been in the area for hours, up until 2.30/3 am perhaps.
I do believe either way he was ultimately responsible for her death, I'm just unsure at this point if he actually had the time to rape / murder and dispose of her body, given we know he did definitely rape her, I just don't know any more.

I'm Polish(but not from polish community-don't know what you mean by that?) I don't know him and my nationality has nothing to do with my views about what happened, I registered on this forum first for Grace Millane trial ,I always had interest in crime and court trials
Before this trial started I thought he killed Libby but this 7.5 mins sounds really too short to rape and kill someone so I'm not sure what actually happened there and I was wonder if anybody else have the same thoughts
I thought this forum is made for express our thoughts no just for agreeing constantly with others.
he may be guilty I don't know at the moment -base on evidence which is available for us- I am not convinced 100% he killed her. I may change my mind later when more evidence will be available