GUILTY UK - Logan Mwangi, 5, found dead in Wales River, Bridgend, 31 July 2021 *arrests, inc. minor* #5

[wowiezowie]

The lights, curtains and phone activity have made up a large part of this case. There is no evidence that categorically states A was awake, using her phone or turning lights on.
The closing speech for A’s barrister casts doubt on her activity during that night.
It’s up the jury to decide whether they believe A was awake and using her phone or not.
IMO she was not awake.

She was the only person in the flat at that time, there's no other explanation. Her explanation is that JC or the youth crept back and climbed over the wall to avoid the CCTV, turned the lights on and off in Logan's room then crept out again avoiding the CCTV and returned normally which is laughable if it wasn't so desperate.
They had no idea the CCTV could see them or they wouldn't have walked out of the house with Logan's body in the first place.
It's inconcievable that they would do that and then sneak back undetected just to turn the lights on and open and close the curtains.

 

[RusselSprout]

Thanks God for these people who have cctv. So many cases I've followed in recent years, it's such pivotal evidence, you can't argue with facts.

 

[ChloLo]

IIRC the medical evidence points to some of the injuries being sustained upto 36 hours before death. Then the fatal injuries around 90 mins - 6 hours before death but that wasn’t a very certain timeframe. Even if the attack AW alleges happened on the 29th did, there was something else after. All three claim to be asleep, but the evidence shows that’s not the case. I also can’t shake the feeling I get from the videos AW watched on the Thursday night, the shaken baby, missing toddler and kidnapped child.

 

[SpursGyal]

I think there’s truth in all their stories, I also think we could see all of them being found guilty.

IMO, all 3 have physically assaulted him, before and after the Thursday she talks about. I think JC is probably telling the truth that she woke him up to tell him Logan was dead. I think she’s been awake watching YouTube and ‘looking after’ Logan who was, without a doubt obviously very poorly and in great pain, hoping she could give him Calpol and avoid seeking medical attention. I think all 3 concocted the declare him missing story and disposal of his body. For me it’s a clean sweep of guilty on all counts.

Unless Casper paid a visit to the house, she was awake. Why she continues to deny it, I don’t understand.

 

[Supernovae]

With regards to the judges route to verdict, where joint enterprise came up, and the issue of foresight vs intent, it's worth reading the summary of the relatively recent UK Supreme Court case of Jogee and Ruddock, which set the current law in this area:

https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/uksc-2015-0015-press-summary.pdf

Jogee and Ruddock v The Queen (Jamaica) [2016] UKSC 8 (18 February 2016)

 

[katydid23]

i'd say she yelled something like "you murdered my baby" as a last ditch attempt to sway the jurors

Didn't she yell something like that at him while he was testifying in court?

 

[katydid23]

I am not expecting anything before next Tuesday afternoon.

Yes, they have three separate defendants to discuss, one at a time. This should take awhile.

 

[katydid23]

Maybe she was asleep?

If so, how were the lights and curtains being moved about---and her phone?

 

[JuicyLucy]

The lights, curtains and phone activity have made up a large part of this case. There is no evidence that categorically states A was awake, using her phone or turning lights on.
The closing speech for A’s barrister casts doubt on her activity during that night.
It’s up the jury to decide whether they believe A was awake and using her phone or not.
IMO she was not awake.

I'm quite sure she was awake for much of the night. She's not completely stupid - she will have known how desperate Logan's condition was. I think she kept vigil for hours, making bargains with God, telling herself that in the morning she really would end things with JC and get her child to safety, not that I think she necessarily would have.

I'm prepared to believe she was asleep at his actual time of death though.

JMO

 

[katydid23]

I'm quite sure she was awake for much of the night. She's not completely stupid - she will have known how desperate Logan's condition was. I think she kept vigil for hours, making bargains with God, telling herself that in the morning she really would end things with JC and get her child to safety, not that I think she necessarily would have.

I'm prepared to believe she was asleep at his actual time of death though.

JMO

Ok, I can see the above scenario: ----so my question is, was she asleep, and she woke up to find him dead, and so she began crying and yelling and that woke up JC? Who then decided to dispose of the child?

OR

Did she fall asleep, and when she woke up, her child was gone already? And at 5 am she began screaming at JC about it---'where is my boy??'

I think it is possible, like you describe above, that she sat up with him, kept a vigil, knowing how serious his injuries were, but she was afraid of losing her baby as well, so she decided to see if he could improve on his own, and get through the medical crisis.

And she fell asleep and did not witness his death. And possibly JC came in and either found him dead, OR found him in much pain and he was crying and in a lot of agony----so JC finished him off? Then disposed of him before she woke up?

I do think it is a possibility that she was surprised that he diwaes disposed of so quickly?? EXCEPT FOR THOSE DARN LIGHTS AND CURTAINS, ETC/

 

[starcrossx]

My theory is that she was awake and was doing what she admitted to on previous occasions, treating at home and failing to get prompt medical attention. Maybe she was in a bit of a panic thinking the collarbone injury would be discovered and she would lose her kids for not getting medical attention for that and now another serious injury. She was probably hoping it would all be ok like the previous occasions. Then I think she has found herself painted into a corner and won't admit that is what happened for the same reason, she will lose the baby, even if telling the truth could see her not being found guilty of murder she probably would lose custody of the baby anyway. This is just my theory, I'm still stumped as to who attacked Logan.

 

[mrazda71]

"He added: “One of us said ‘Take him out’, I picked him up, carried him out and took him to the river.”

Picked him up.
Carried him out.

No mention of stuffing him into a too small Nike holdall

 

[Alicethroughtheglass]

My theory is that she was awake and was doing what she admitted to on previous occasions, treating at home and failing to get prompt medical attention. Maybe she was in a bit of a panic thinking the collarbone injury would be discovered and she would lose her kids for not getting medical attention for that and now another serious injury. She was probably hoping it would all be ok like the previous occasions. Then I think she has found herself painted into a corner and won't admit that is what happened for the same reason, she will lose the baby, even if telling the truth could see her not being found guilty of murder she probably would lose custody of the baby anyway. This is just my theory, I'm still stumped as to who attacked Logan.

I agree with a lot of this too, IMO that’s why they dumped Logan’s body and feigned a Kidnap or runaway, rather than call an ambulance even after he had died.

 

[JuicyLucy]

Ok, I can see the above scenario: ----so my question is, was she asleep, and she woke up to find him dead, and so she began crying and yelling and that woke up JC? Who then decided to dispose of the child?

OR

Did she fall asleep, and when she woke up, her child was gone already? And at 5 am she began screaming at JC about it---'where is my boy??'

I think it is possible, like you describe above, that she sat up with him, kept a vigil, knowing how serious his injuries were, but she was afraid of losing her baby as well, so she decided to see if he could improve on his own, and get through the medical crisis.

And she fell asleep and did not witness his death. And possibly JC came in and either found him dead, OR found him in much pain and he was crying and in a lot of agony----so JC finished him off? Then disposed of him before she woke up?

I do think it is a possibility that she was surprised that he diwaes disposed of so quickly?? EXCEPT FOR THOSE DARN LIGHTS AND CURTAINS, ETC/

I think that's a good question. I've always assumed that AW was part of the plan to take him to the river, but it's possible, unless I've forgotten something, that the noise created by JC and the youth taking Logan's body and leaving the house is what woke her up, and that the lights going on and curtains moving happened in response to waking and finding the house empty.

JC could then have told her on his return that Logan was still alive but that they would need to explain his injuries by pretending he'd been abducted, which I think is a cover story they had previously discussed. It would explain the "you told me he was alive" exclamation from her later, which I've always thought rang true as a genuine and unguarded moment.

Just speculating though, and perhaps I'm forgetting something that undermines that as a theory.

 

[JosieJo]

Ok, I can see the above scenario: ----so my question is, was she asleep, and she woke up to find him dead, and so she began crying and yelling and that woke up JC? Who then decided to dispose of the child?

OR

Did she fall asleep, and when she woke up, her child was gone already? And at 5 am she began screaming at JC about it---'where is my boy??'

I think it is possible, like you describe above, that she sat up with him, kept a vigil, knowing how serious his injuries were, but she was afraid of losing her baby as well, so she decided to see if he could improve on his own, and get through the medical crisis.

And she fell asleep and did not witness his death. And possibly JC came in and either found him dead, OR found him in much pain and he was crying and in a lot of agony----so JC finished him off? Then disposed of him before she woke up?

I do think it is a possibility that she was surprised that he diwaes disposed of so quickly?? EXCEPT FOR THOSE DARN LIGHTS AND CURTAINS, ETC/

The neighbour hearing AW shout "what have you done with my child" (or similar) ..jmo but I think she sat with him in his room dosing and watching her videos and as she said she "heard him take his last breath" ..likely called JC who told her to get out of the room and maybe as he states tried to revive him in some way. ...its possible he took logan out of the house while she was in another room ...hence the lights going back on in logans room while JC and the youth were out.

On their return she shouts what have you done with him

There's usually bits of truth dotted in with people's lies

 

[SpursGyal]

Jurors continue their deliberations
The jury resumed their deliberations at 10am to

Probably one of the only updates we will get today.

Logan Mwangi murder trial - live updates as jury deliberate

 

[Alyce]

The neighbour hearing AW shout "what have you done with my child" (or similar) ..jmo but I think she sat with him in his room dosing and watching her videos and as she said she "heard him take his last breath" ..likely called JC who told her to get out of the room and maybe as he states tried to revive him in some way. ...its possible he took logan out of the house while she was in another room ...hence the lights going back on in logans room while JC and the youth were out.

On their return she shouts what have you done with him

There's usually bits of truth dotted in with people's lies

I agree about the bit of truth mixed in with their numerous lies.
Her comment - hearing him take his last breath - sounds truthful. It is also probably something she will talk about for years, during her time in prison.

MOO of course

 

[neteditor]

My theory is that she was awake and was doing what she admitted to on previous occasions, treating at home and failing to get prompt medical attention. Maybe she was in a bit of a panic thinking the collarbone injury would be discovered and she would lose her kids for not getting medical attention for that and now another serious injury. She was probably hoping it would all be ok like the previous occasions. Then I think she has found herself painted into a corner and won't admit that is what happened for the same reason, she will lose the baby, even if telling the truth could see her not being found guilty of murder she probably would lose custody of the baby anyway. This is just my theory, I'm still stumped as to who attacked Logan.

The baby is gone. Even if she gets off completely, which she won't, she's never seeing that child again.

 

[Cherwell]

The baby is gone. Even if she gets off completely, which she won't, she's never seeing that child again.

But there's nothing to stop her from having more children when she gets out.

 

[neteditor]

But there's nothing to stop her from having more children when she gets out.

Obviously all cases are different, and I can't predict what would be decided in her case, but I know of one specific case in which a child suffered a non-accidental (non fatal) broken leg, neither parent would admit how it happened, the child was removed permanently and every future child she bore was removed immediately after birth (she was due her third baby at the time I knew of it, the second to be taken at birth.)