UK - Lucy Letby - Post-Conviction Statutory Inquiry

[Tortoise]

Mail's podcast

 

[Sweeper2000]

I have more relevant experience with NHS Nicu. My child was 28 weeks early and in the NICU for four months. When an alarm was turned off, it was turned off at the bedside (incubator) by whoever responded to it. If you would like more details, I can give them to you.
ETA: For clarity, I was there as an inpatient myself for six weeks, and once discharged, I was there all waking hours for the next six weeks, and then twice a day, once in the morning and once in the evening, for the last month (I had three other children at home).

11P

Well I was just thinking that if you as a parent were told that the hospital is investigating your child's death or collapse, before any police are involved, (not in this case but in a hypothetical case) without being able to give you any information about what happened, that would signal some suspicion of a failing in care which they weren't yet in a position to confirm or deny. As a parent I would want to know what they were keeping from me, especially if my baby had already had a post-mortem, or had been left brain-damaged as a result of a collapse. Perhaps the parents could be contacted as a final part of the investigation, once there are firmed up suspicions, so that they can inform the investigation more fully.

I should have been clearer that it was a hypothetical question about no foul play being found, not in LL's case, but for recommendations as to how this should be handled in the future.

I see yah T. Yeh I think your right, establish a planned approach to occasions when there are suspicions but not much evidence and incorporate the parents into the "potentially criminal investigation"? A dedicated route to these very rare occasions. Makes sense to me. I do hope at the least that organisations and maybe lawmakers are able to use this case as a template to build effective preventative strategies for this kind of stuff. We know the scope of what she has done so make it impossible to happen again. Maybe even as part of a hospital patient safety route make it so that external agencies have to check the medical files of all unexpected NNU deaths. It does seem the organisational structure played a role here. Imagine if for example Baby A case files had gone to a external agency and then the others after? I think a agency tasked with reviewing all NNU unexpected deaths and collapses would have been able to step in sooner and then presumably to hear news of a health care killer from the docs and not have the docs vs managers fiasco as a potential? I think that would work maybe. Jmo though.

ETA. I think it would be good to have systems that negate the potential for adversarial dynamics to take place. We saw the managers backed Lucy, external people won't have that almost personalised perspective on who they are talking about. They would see only the irregularities in the med files. Even Dr Gibbs initially said "not nice lucy".

 

[JosieJo]

BBC News - Mum lied to about son's Letby death probe - inquiry

Lucy Letby inquiry: Hospital boss 'lied about son's death probe'

A mother of a baby murdered by Lucy Letby tells an inquiry she was "kept in the dark" about her son's care.

www.bbc.com

 

[JosieJo]

Bosses at Lucy Letby's hospital slammed for 'whitewash', inquiry hears

The GP mother of a premature baby boy murdered by Lucy Letby branded Ian Harvey, the former medical director at the Countess of Chester Hospital, an 'absolute disgrace.'

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Sweeper2000]

It did just get more bizarre. That is shocking. Wot in the sweet flying duck is that about ? Makes no sense, it was almost undeniable at that point even to himself that he was going to have to be upfront about what was going on so why lie?

Totally feel for the parents.

 

[Tortoise]

As Child D's mother gave evidence at the Thirlwall Inquiry into the events surrounding Letby's crimes, she explained had she known her daughter had suffered one collapse, she would have stayed in the room with her "all night". As part of the inquiry, every hospital in England with a neonatal unit has been asked whether is has considered installing CCTV in the wake of the Letby killing spree in which she murdered seven infants and attempted to murder seven more.

[...]

The inquiry heard she went on to request the hospital notes of Child D and herself as she “clued up” on medical terms, protocols and guidelines. It led to a meeting with the treating consultant paediatrician who told her that as a department they felt the most likely diagnosis was an “overwhelming infection” and that a rash which was documented to have appeared during the infant’s initial deterioration was likely a sign of its effect.

Child D’s mother said though that her daughter’s test result for infection had come back negative. She said: “I said, ‘well you explain this to me, it doesn’t make sense’. She was getting better, not worse. She couldn’t explain.

[...]

In September 2015 she wrote to Cheshire coroner Nicholas Rheinberg to set out the results of her own research and requested a full inquest into Child D’s death and a review of the post-mortem examination.

more at link

'Lucy Letby wouldn't have killed my baby if there was CCTV'

Every hospital in England with a neonatal unit has been asked whether is has considered installing CCTV in the wake of the Letby killing spree

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

 

[iamshadow21]

As Child D's mother gave evidence at the Thirlwall Inquiry into the events surrounding Letby's crimes, she explained had she known her daughter had suffered one collapse, she would have stayed in the room with her "all night". As part of the inquiry, every hospital in England with a neonatal unit has been asked whether is has considered installing CCTV in the wake of the Letby killing spree in which she murdered seven infants and attempted to murder seven more.

[...]

The inquiry heard she went on to request the hospital notes of Child D and herself as she “clued up” on medical terms, protocols and guidelines. It led to a meeting with the treating consultant paediatrician who told her that as a department they felt the most likely diagnosis was an “overwhelming infection” and that a rash which was documented to have appeared during the infant’s initial deterioration was likely a sign of its effect.

Child D’s mother said though that her daughter’s test result for infection had come back negative. She said: “I said, ‘well you explain this to me, it doesn’t make sense’. She was getting better, not worse. She couldn’t explain.

[...]

In September 2015 she wrote to Cheshire coroner Nicholas Rheinberg to set out the results of her own research and requested a full inquest into Child D’s death and a review of the post-mortem examination.

more at link

'Lucy Letby wouldn't have killed my baby if there was CCTV'

Every hospital in England with a neonatal unit has been asked whether is has considered installing CCTV in the wake of the Letby killing spree

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

Wow. Genuine deep respect for this citizen sleuth, putting together the pieces to help solve her own child's murder. She knew it didn't make sense and she gathered the proof.

MOO

 

[Tortoise]

She [Mother D] even enlisted the help of a solicitor and suggested police be called in, but was initially told it was not a criminal matter.

[...]

The hearing was told that the couple's baby, known as Baby D, was born three weeks early, weighing 6lbs 14oz.

She was being treated on the unit for an infection when Letby attacked her three times over the course of a single night shift, finally killing her with an injection of air.

Baby D's mother said she never had a conversation with Letby, but described feeling 'very uneasy' in her presence and that she 'stood out' as being 'odd.'

[...]

The inquiry has heard that copies of a report carried out by the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health that were eventually sent to parents, in April 2017, but sections relating to Letby had been removed.

Baby D's mother said that, if she had known that suspicions about a member of staff had been raised, she would have gone to the police herself.

'I would have gone to the police, regardless of what anyone advised,' she said.

[...]

Eventually, a police investigation was launched, in May 2017, but Baby D's mother said she had no clue a nurse was under suspicion until Letby was arrested a year later, in July 2018, almost three years after her daughter's death.

Mother of Lucy Letby victim 'thought she was losing her mind'

Lady Justice Thirlwall told the mother she had 'done everything' for her child, who was the third baby murdered by the neo-natal nurse at the Countess of Chester Hospital in two weeks in June 2015.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Sweeper2000]

I think it just got more bizarre didn't it? Baby D mum knew what was up!

 

[iamshadow21]

I think it just got more bizarre didn't it? Baby D mum knew what was up!

Just got sadder. They had the chance to do something to stop this. They just ignored the specialists, the parents, and the deaths and collapses of the babies themselves. September 2015, she was trying to sound the alarm. That could have saved lives and pain if it had been taken seriously.

MOO

 

[Tortoise]

From pages 54 & 55 of yesterday's transcript - Documents, evidence and transcripts | The Thirlwall Inquiry

LADY JUSTICE THIRLWALL: "Thank you, Mr Skelton.

Mother A&B, that's the end of your evidence. I can't thank you enough for coming and giving your evidence today. And you've helped me really begin to get to profoundly understand your experiences and that of your partner.

There is just something I'd like to say to you, though, because towards the end of your evidence you said that you and he felt powerless during the whole of the experiences you have described, and that's a very interesting and I'm sure accurate observation.

But what I'd like you to know is that your evidence today is amongst the most powerful I have ever heard. I'll just say a little bit more because you caused me to reflect a bit.

Obviously, the love that you and your partner have for your children shines through, as is your -- as does your determination to make a difference to people in the future. And you've really reflected on what happened to you and how it could and should have been very different. The expression you used was: "They should have put themselves in our shoes". And that obviously is an insightful observation and one which I thought I would consider as people explain to me in due course how they behaved at various stages.

I'll give very careful consideration to all your practical and thoughtful suggestions for change that already you have made a difference and you will achieve change. Thank you very much indeed."

--

Touching words, I thought.

 

[CS2C]

So that text she sent her colleagues saying the father was on the floor crying saying please don’t take our baby away was a load of rubbish.

What a strange individual Lucy is.

 

[iamshadow21]

So that text she sent her colleagues saying the father was on the floor crying saying please don’t take our baby away was a load of rubbish.

What a strange individual Lucy is.

Oh, I absolutely knew that whole stuff was emotional vampirism feeding off her friend's reaction. That she made it up out of whole cloth doesn't surprise me at all. I bet there was a high degree of fantasy at play there. I wonder if she was disappointed the reality didn't match it, so hence got her feed in another way - by inflicting that image on another.

MOO

 

[Sweeper2000]

Another strange bit of behaviour to add to the list of info that condemns. Why didn't that feature in the trial? Or did it?

 

[Marantz4250b]

Another strange bit of behaviour to add to the list of info that condemns. Why didn't that feature in the trial? Or did it?

I'm not sure if there is some confusion coming in here; I think I recall the discussion on here (maybe somewhere else) where someone suggested that the phrase "on the floor" was another way of saying "on the ward". Similar to the way in which the phrase "on the factory floor" doesn't mean actually lying on the floor of the factory but rather a way to describe where someone was/is.

 

[CS2C]

I'm not sure if there is some confusion coming in here; I think I recall the discussion on here (maybe somewhere else) where someone suggested that the phrase "on the floor" was another way of saying "on the ward". Similar to the way in which the phrase "on the factory floor" doesn't mean actually lying on the floor of the factory but rather a way to describe where someone was/is.

No it is "On the floor crying" I have gone back and looked and the cross examination transcript where the text was read out by Lucy. She said in court she didn't remember it happening. I'll probably show all of this in a video.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I'm not sure if there is some confusion coming in here; I think I recall the discussion on here (maybe somewhere else) where someone suggested that the phrase "on the floor" was another way of saying "on the ward". Similar to the way in which the phrase "on the factory floor" doesn't mean actually lying on the floor of the factory but rather a way to describe where someone was/is.

Yeh the short actual quote is "dad was on the floor crying". I'm not sure that makes sense. If she lied why wouldn't she take into account that other staff had seen the same and the accounts would differ? You would also add the "on the floor" only contextually to someone who wasn't there or if the dad wasn't expected to be there, situationally was he expected to be or not? I think he was

 

[Tortoise]

This was reported from her cross-examination on the subject of her text. Note the text was sent after baby A's death but BEFORE baby B's collapse on her next shift.

2:06pm

Asked if staffing levels or mistakes had contributed to the collapse of Child B, Letby says she does not know what caused Child B's collapse.
She says she does not recall Child B's father lying on the floor following Child B's collapse.
A text message from Letby includes:...'Dad was on the floor crying saying please don't take our baby away when I took him to the mortuary, it's just heartbreaking."
Letby says she does not recall that.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, May 18 - prosecution cross-examines Letby

(underlining by me)

The parents' agreed evidence was received at trial by written statement. I don't suppose they would have known what texts LL had sent to be able to address the issue in their statements, but LL clearly didn't persist with her lie when she took the stand, saying she couldn't recall it, and also it appears she tried to get away with having no memory of it happening during a completely different event.

She was, at the time of her text, trying to broadcast to her nurse friend, as well as the shift leader, that she could not be given baby B on the next shift, so that when she attacked baby B someone else would be down as the designated nurse. IMO

 

[Marantz4250b]

Yeh the short actual quote is "dad was on the floor crying". I'm not sure that makes sense. If she lied why wouldn't she take into account that other staff had seen the same and the accounts would differ? You would also add the "on the floor" only contextually to someone who wasn't there or if the dad wasn't expected to be there, situationally was he expected to be or not? I think he was

I'm not sure - I think the mother would be expected to be there but if the dad was present less prior then maybe he wasn't?

"On the floor crying" just seems to be a bit of a ridiculous thing to say because it sounds so implausible - although far from impossible - as it's not usually the way people behave.