GUILTY UK - Mikaeel Kular, 3, Edinburgh, Scotland, 15 Jan 2014 - #3

[SnoopyDoobyDoo]

If "wicked recklessness" what she did wouldn't the charge be culpable murder instead of murder?

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No. From the website:

Murder is committed when the accused has acted with the intention of killing the victim or where the accused's conduct has been 'wickedly reckless'.
Culpable homicide is committed where the accused has caused loss of life through wrongful conduct, but where there was no intention to kill or 'wicked recklessness'.

Edit- So culpable homicide means there wasn't sufficient evidence of wicked recklessness or the intention to kill.

Charges can be downgraded even during the trial, so it's possible they went for the big charge and will downgrade it to culpable homicide if the post-mortem doesn't provide enough evidence for wicked recklessness.

 

[Iplem]

my feeling is that she confessed to something , accidental or illness and led police to his body , but they now know it wasnt an accident hence murder charge ,
she hasnt entered a plea , but i dont think they usually do on the first hearing ?

When they found his body at the bungalow, my feeling was that she'd confessed and led them there. But I now think the police probably figured it out fairly easily by themselves, based on forensics in the flat, and knowing that she visited that bungalow. I reckon she's been either quiet or carrying on with her 'disappeared into thin air in the night' fairytale and the police knew early on it was rubbish.

 

[haden]

When they found his body at the bungalow, my feeling was that she'd confessed and led them there. But I now think the police probably figured it out fairly easily by themselves, based on forensics in the flat, and knowing that she visited that bungalow. I reckon she's been either quiet or carrying on with her 'disappeared into thin air in the night' fairytale and the police knew early on it was rubbish.

They could have figured out by her mobile phone whereabouts where she was

 

[sar2them1984]

Some good theories on here today. Unfortunately I don't think we will hear much more now until the trial; if there is one or until she pleads guilty

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[mrsward]

i have the image of a lump on his head ... but i choose not to see reality.. fingers print marks round his neck ? even stab wound?

i just cant see the mum murdering him..

whats wrong with me ?

 

[graceholl]

They could have figured out by her mobile phone whereabouts where she was

If she was silly enough to leave it on or take it with her. We don't know how much premeditation there was. (I'd assume a fair amount to get a murder charge...)

 

[haden]

It is a very very confusing case.. her internet image doesn't make her a cold killer..

But the coroner would find out the time of death, possibly forensics can figure out the place of death.. and they can also argue that she was present.. which does make her a cold killer.

Then the question is where the other kids were at that time?

 

[Inge Jones]

I wonder what charge they would go for if this was the USA? Murder 1 has to be premeditated and have a motive doesn't it? In Casey Anthony's case they were putting forward the motive of wanting to go back to enjoying a single life without a child holding her down. But I can't think of a motive in the case of a woman who has 4 other children including one exactly the same age. One assumes little M didn't have a legacy she was trying to inherit herself or an insurance policy.

And I can't imagine a scenario when she started thinking "Hmm, I think I need to kill this kid" so there goes the premeditation.

As it happens, Scottish murder definition appears to include reckless behaviour (eg leaving a 3 yr old in the house alone) so that's sorted for the Scottish courts. I think in England that makes it manslaughter, provided she didn't want him to die? But what do you think a US prosecutor might try and go for, in the absence of clear signs of violence upon the little boy?

 

[Iplem]

It is very sad, but not uncommon, for one child to be singled out for dislike. I am NOT saying that is the case here, just that it does happen.

I had a pal who was one of five children ( five different fathers ! ). All the other kids were well treated, she was the one who's birthday was always forgotten, didn't get Christmas presents, her name was not mentioned when her mother sent Christmas cards, when her mother talked about her kids, she always said she had four children.

Even when my pal got married and had a child, her mother never mentioned my pal's daughter ( her grand daughter ) and pretended she didn't exist.

As to if RK lost her temper and didn't intend murder, then she would be entering a plea of manslaughter I believe.

Gosh, how awful, although we don't know what happened, this is seeming very depressing now.

 

[Inge Jones]

How come Rosdeep's face is pixellated out in the newspaper photos now rather than other members of the family?

 

[SnoopyDoobyDoo]

As it happens, Scottish murder definition appears to include reckless behaviour (eg leaving a 3 yr old in the house alone) so that's sorted for the Scottish courts. I think in England that makes it manslaughter, provided she didn't want him to die? But what do you think a US prosecutor might try and go for, in the absence of clear signs of violence upon the little boy?

I'm not an expert of the Scottish legal system, but I don't think leaving him alone would be considered wicked recklessness. It's all a bit complicated because the legal terms are very similar to terms in the public conscience (reckless endangerment) but different ideas. My understanding is that "wicked recklessness" within the context of the murder charge is primarily based on the severity of the injuries. So (very general and excessive example, I don't know where Scottish law draws the line) if you got into a fight, punched a guy and the guy died, culpable homicide (or possibly assault) would be the charge. If you got into a fight, punched the guy a hundred times, kept kicking him when he was down, then hit him in the head another hundred times, the charge would be murder even if you hadn't set out with the purpose of killing him.

Edit- This article is interesting and short.
"Premeditation has never been part of the law on murder in Scotland, but someone does have to behave in a wickedly reckless way which indicates that they really don't care if someone lives or dies."

 

[Iplem]

Am surprised her Instagram is still up, lot of aggression on there now.

 

[taagean]

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/spl/aberdeen/when-murder-can-be-defined-as-an-act-of-wicked-recklessness-1.46347

For an example of "wicked recklessness", here is an older article from a Scottish newspaper about someone being charged with murder due to wicked recklessness.

 

[SilkySifaka]

I think the key is the "wicked recklessness" in Scottish code. That I can reconcile with the emerging pic of the mum that we have. I don't think this was premeditated murder and I think wicked restlessness fits doing something extremely stupid or dangerous for her child, snapping etc. without meaning to kill him but at the time not considering that she could, or if she knew it she ignored it.

Somehow i feel its a lesser homicide, all things point to her having been a decent if not great mum who may have been overwhelmed (it is what i think the removal of the twins was for by SS for a period of time until mum got herself together to be show she could handle that many children at once and that young)

A stupid woman in many ways who did foolish things like leaving them alone yet had no malice until this happened

 

[Inge Jones]

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/spl/aberdeen/when-murder-can-be-defined-as-an-act-of-wicked-recklessness-1.46347

For an example of "wicked recklessness", here is an older article from a Scottish newspaper about someone being charged with murder due to wicked recklessness.

Going by that, I'd have said she could be done for murder if she, say, had drugs lying about the house and didn't do anything to make sure he couldn't get to them. So it could overlap the "neglect" situation.

 

[iamnotagolem]

I'm not at all surprised by the murder charge.

Can someone point to ONE case where a child dies accidentally and the parent(s) try to make it look like murder? I've never come across one, but it's suggested on nearly every thread where a parent kills their child.

This case only strengthens my opinion on other cases where there are so many similarities but the body never found, charges never filed.

As far as him looking "malnourished" I wouldn't base it on pictures. I'd be accused of malnourishing my daughter, while my son looks well fed. In reality, my son has severe sensory issues and eats a very limited diet but weighs 5 lbs more than his older sister.

 

[zwiebel]

How come Rosdeep's face is pixellated out in the newspaper photos now rather than other members of the family?

Odd. I have never seen that before. Perhaps she has sold the copyright of all of her photos to someone. Or the court made (ridiculous imo) late order that her identity cannot be revealed? All blurred in the Mail now.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...r-Rosdeep-Kular-appears-court-sons-death.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-25816678

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jan/20/mikaeel-kular-mother-charged-with-murder

 

[haden]

I'm not an expert of the Scottish legal system, but I don't think leaving him alone would be considered wicked recklessness. It's all a bit complicated because the legal terms are very similar to terms in the public conscience (reckless endangerment) but different ideas. My understanding is that "wicked recklessness" within the context of the murder charge is primarily based on the severity of the injuries. So (very general and excessive example, I don't know where Scottish law draws the line) if you got into a fight, punched a guy and the guy died, culpable homicide (or possibly assault) would be the charge. If you got into a fight, punched the guy a hundred times, kept kicking him when he was down, then hit him in the head another hundred times, the charge would be murder even if you hadn't set out with the purpose of killing him.

Edit- This article is interesting and short.
"Premeditation has never been part of the law on murder in Scotland, but someone does have to behave in a wickedly reckless way which indicates that they really don't care if someone lives or dies."

To me 'murder' means she had her hands in his death.. like hitting him etc.. but to be honest after looking at her instagram and her dating profile this is very hard for me to believe!

 

[JanIreland]

Some of worst parents i know are all over social media posting pictures of their kids ...talking pictures of the "good times" does not a good Mother make .
This women who was well known by child services who actually was dodging them . Managed to go out loads ,living life of a single women .Her child however it happened was murdered and she disposed of his body and lied about it while leaving hundreds search. This is not your average "Mother"
As hard as it is too grasp ...some people have a different make up to us .
I find it hard to believe people are making the same excuse Casey Antony used ...he died and she in a panic , dumped him ....come on . As a mother it's unbelievable as an excuse

 

[laurauk1]

In England, the CPS will often go in with the highest possible charge at the beginning, even if there would not be enough evidence for someone to be convicted on this charge beyond responsible doubt, at that stage. The idea is that often charges will get downgraded and so by going in as high as they can, they won't be downgraded too much. Charges can be downgraded anytime up to the trial day, based upon the actual evidence that comes about. So for example, if further down the line the Prosecution put the case together and realise they haven't got enough for a jury to convict beyond reasonable doubt for murder, they will change the charges to something lesser that they do have enough evidence for.

I'm not sure if this is the same in ScotlAnd though. Perhaps someone can confirm, although I didn't know this in England until a recent personal experience led me to learn this.