UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #11

[marynnu]

That’s what I’m wondering as well. 30 minutes of blood not going to the brain I would have thought would leave anyone with severe brain damage. There mau be a way that oxygen could still get there though?

Don't forget this baby was having CPR. This supplies oxygen rich blood to the brain. If not this baby would have died.

 

[marynnu]

This adds just a little to the Twitter report.

Baby boy collapsed because of ‘slow injection of air', Lucy Letby's trial hears

Letby, 33, is accused of trying to murder Child M on the afternoon of April 9 2016.

www.irishnews.com

 

[ColourPurple]

I can’t stop thinking about the testimony yesterday from Dr J, about discussing stopping resuscitation efforts with Baby M’s parents, before M made a sudden and miraculous recovery.

Imagine being the parents of the other babies, who agreed to stopping resuscitation, and listening to this. They will forever be haunted, thinking “what if I just said no, would my baby still be here”. It’s unfathomable.

There’s probably no worse pain that a human could endure.

Also, I note the neurologist and LL’s notes suggested M had sustained brain damage. But both parents seem to suggest there was no lasting damage? Do we know either way for sure? I’m really hoping that any damage was so minimal that it’s left no obvious mark on that little boy.

It reminded me of Baby C , whose heart restarted after resus stopped and didn't pass away until 5 hours later.

"Medical staff had initially gone twice over the normal 20-minute threshold recommended for resuscitation to continue once a baby has failed to respond.

And they continued to carry out 'token' resuscitation for another hour, to allow time for the infant to be baptised by both a Catholic priest and a Church of England vicar...

Dr John Gibbs, a consultant paediatrician who had worked for 20 years at the hospital, told the jury at Manchester Crown Court: 'Surprisingly, while we were waiting for the two minister there were some signs of life.

'I hadn't been expecting that. I was not sure initially what to do, because we had stopped full resuscitation. We were only performing a token resuscitation to allow him to be christened.

'I'm not sure why his breathing – occasional gasps – and his heart beats re-started.

'It was five hours (later) when finally no heart beat was heard and there were no further gasping responses'.

By then Dr Gibbs had returned home, but he recalled a colleague, Katherine Davis, a paediatric registrar in the unit, calling him on a number of occasions.

'She called me – I can't remember how many times – to say 'Baby C is still showing breathing effort'.

The consultant said he did not want to give the impression that he was blaming the parents for their decision to have the resuscitation continue while the two ministers made their way to the hospital.

'I'm not blaming them. It's not their fault. The fault is that his heart and breathing started again – and that should not happen.

'I can't think of any natural disease process that would allow the heart to re-start later on when you've not been able to re-start it with resuscitation.

'That suggests that whatever catastrophic event caused his death was reversing. I don't understand that from a natural disease process'.

Lucy Letby: 'Baby killed by nurse showed signs of life for FIVE HOURS'

A baby allegedly murdered by nurse Lucy Letby showed intermittent signs of life for five hours after a medical crash team called off their desperate attempts to resuscitate him, a court heard today.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Anxala]

So - if LL caused AE's in babies, might she not have researched how to do it, and what the effects might be? eg maybe she even found the exact same article which Dr J did? So, wouldn't any searching which LL may have done leave a trail in her computer? Has her computer been thoroughly examined for searches? Has she acquired a new computer since then? My apologies if this has already been discussed.

I don't think it has been discussed. Her phone history, yes, but not any computer-related history. We don't know if she had one, do we? She may not have. She may have just used her phone for everything. If she had one, I'm sure it would have been searched, and very very thoroughly, and if its history revealed anything of significance, it would surely have been brought up by now.

Everything seems to have come from her phone data.

 

[DianaWW]

I don't think it has been discussed. Her phone history, yes, but not any computer-related history. We don't know if she had one, do we? She may not have. She may have just used her phone for everything. If she had one, I'm sure it would have been searched, and very very thoroughly, and if its history revealed anything of significance, it would surely have been brought up by now.

Everything seems to have come from her phone data.

I agree, I’ve only seen phone data mentioned. And I wonder, if she’d upgraded her phone between 2016 when she stopped working at the hospital, and her first arrest in 2018, would any google searches still be viewable? I know WhatsApp messages back up, so old chats are transferred to a new phone automatically unless you manually delete them. But I’m not sure if any google searches from the time period of the alleged offences would still show up. JMO.

 

[Tortoise]

I don't think it has been discussed. Her phone history, yes, but not any computer-related history. We don't know if she had one, do we? She may not have. She may have just used her phone for everything. If she had one, I'm sure it would have been searched, and very very thoroughly, and if its history revealed anything of significance, it would surely have been brought up by now.

Everything seems to have come from her phone data.

In a November 2020 police interview, police put to her that Letby had tracked the family of Child A on Facebook. She said she had no memory of doing so but accepted it if there was evidence on her computer doing so.
The prosecution said there was evidence.
Recap: Prosecution opens trial of Lucy Letby accused of Countess of Chester Hospital baby murders

Letby messages a colleague just before 11pm, lamenting that she had forgotten to record Strictly that night, and BBC iPlayer doesn't work on her iPad.
Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Wednesday, January 18

 

[Sweeper2000]

Don't forget this baby was having CPR. This supplies oxygen rich blood to the brain. If not this baby would have died.

That’s one thing I’m not getting though. magicarp explanation of an AE said it causes cardiac arrest by stopping oxygenated blood reaching the heart A muscle so is it the case that it doesn’t necessarily actually cause the blood to stop flowing altogether? Ie can stop the heart from beating but doesn’t stop blood flow altogether?

 

[JerseyGirl]

Lucy Letby: Baby boy given 'noxious substance', nurse trial hears

A baby boy's heart stopped after he was given a "noxious substance" or injected with air, jury told.

www.bbc.com

 

[Sweeper2000]

I agree, I’ve only seen phone data mentioned. And I wonder, if she’d upgraded her phone between 2016 when she stopped working at the hospital, and her first arrest in 2018, would any google searches still be viewable? I know WhatsApp messages back up, so old chats are transferred to a new phone automatically unless you manually delete them. But I’m not sure if any google searches from the time period of the alleged offences would still show up. JMO.

All google searches are recorded, you need specialist software or an anonymous search engine to stop your internet history being recorded. WhatsApp is encrypted I think but still recorded. If she had done anything on the web and was using a computer associated With her and not using that software the police would have it.

 

[Anxala]

In a November 2020 police interview, police put to her that Letby had tracked the family of Child A on Facebook. She said she had no memory of doing so but accepted it if there was evidence on her computer doing so.
The prosecution said there was evidence.
Recap: Prosecution opens trial of Lucy Letby accused of Countess of Chester Hospital baby murders

Letby messages a colleague just before 11pm, lamenting that she had forgotten to record Strictly that night, and BBC iPlayer doesn't work on her iPad.
Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Wednesday, January 18

Oh thanks for that, Tortoise.

And it also answers the question as to whether all her devices were thoroughly searched. They clearly were.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I think mr Myers is suggesting by this quote

“Mr Myers is now questioning Dr Bohin, he puts it to her that there is 'not much' to support her conclusions. She says that the infant suffered a cardiac arrest, 'something caused that, the baby almost died...for me air embolus fitted with that'”

https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue

about the lack of symptoms just before the collapse. Ie the baby had a heart attack without warning. he might be right in that regard. Would the baby not have been in any pain immediately prior to the collapse?

 

[Tortoise]

This adds just a little to the Twitter report.

Baby boy collapsed because of ‘slow injection of air', Lucy Letby's trial hears

Letby, 33, is accused of trying to murder Child M on the afternoon of April 9 2016.

www.irishnews.com

Thanks. Just going to copy over a few lines -

"Expert witness Dr Dewi Evans said he believes air “trickled” into the infant's circulation via a connecting port on his intravenous drip. [...]

Letby was near the doorway of room one, helping a colleague prepare medication for Child M's twin brother, when the alarm sounded at 4pm, the court heard on Thursday.

Consultant paediatrician Dr Evans said using a syringe to inject air via a port would be slower than a direct injection into the bloodstream.

Prosecutor Nick Johnson KC asked: “Would it follow, if someone chose to do it that way, they would not necessarily be standing over the baby at the time of the collapse?”

Dr Evans replied: “Yes, because you would not necessarily get an instant collapse. It could have occurred over several minutes." [...]

 

[marynnu]

That’s one thing I’m not getting though. magicarp explanation of an AE said it causes cardiac arrest by stopping oxygenated blood reaching the heart A muscle so is it the case that it doesn’t necessarily actually cause the blood to stop flowing altogether? Ie can stop the heart from beating but doesn’t stop blood flow altogether?

All the following are my personal views only. I am not an acknowledged expert.

If your heart stops beating adequately blood flow stops. But cardiac compressions can keep things going till either the heart recovers or till further treatment is started, such as giving drugs e.g. adrenaline, or in some cases defibrillation (not with babies though).
This is a dire emergency, if you don't act quickly the heart itself starts to die. It's worth saying that cardiac arrest is pretty unusual in neonates, and almost always follows respiratory arrest.

 

[marynnu]

I think mr Myers is suggesting by this quote

“Mr Myers is now questioning Dr Bohin, he puts it to her that there is 'not much' to support her conclusions. She says that the infant suffered a cardiac arrest, 'something caused that, the baby almost died...for me air embolus fitted with that'”

https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue

about the lack of symptoms just before the collapse. Ie the baby had a heart attack without warning. he might be right in that regard. Would the baby not have been in any pain immediately prior to the collapse?

The baby did not have a heart attack, it was a cardiac arrest.

 

[Dotta]

That’s one thing I’m not getting though. magicarp explanation of an AE said it causes cardiac arrest by stopping oxygenated blood reaching the heart A muscle so is it the case that it doesn’t necessarily actually cause the blood to stop flowing altogether? Ie can stop the heart from beating but doesn’t stop blood flow altogether?

If heart stops beating, blood stops flowing.

Period.

The aim of CPR is to perform chest compressions to enable the heart to continue to pump blood around the body to remain oxygenated.

 

[Dotta]

It reminded me of Baby C , whose heart restarted after resus stopped and didn't pass away until 5 hours later.

"Medical staff had initially gone twice over the normal 20-minute threshold recommended for resuscitation to continue once a baby has failed to respond.

And they continued to carry out 'token' resuscitation for another hour, to allow time for the infant to be baptised by both a Catholic priest and a Church of England vicar...

Dr John Gibbs, a consultant paediatrician who had worked for 20 years at the hospital, told the jury at Manchester Crown Court: 'Surprisingly, while we were waiting for the two minister there were some signs of life.

'I hadn't been expecting that. I was not sure initially what to do, because we had stopped full resuscitation. We were only performing a token resuscitation to allow him to be christened.

'I'm not sure why his breathing – occasional gasps – and his heart beats re-started.

'It was five hours (later) when finally no heart beat was heard and there were no further gasping responses'.

By then Dr Gibbs had returned home, but he recalled a colleague, Katherine Davis, a paediatric registrar in the unit, calling him on a number of occasions.

'She called me – I can't remember how many times – to say 'Baby C is still showing breathing effort'.

The consultant said he did not want to give the impression that he was blaming the parents for their decision to have the resuscitation continue while the two ministers made their way to the hospital.

'I'm not blaming them. It's not their fault. The fault is that his heart and breathing started again – and that should not happen.

'I can't think of any natural disease process that would allow the heart to re-start later on when you've not been able to re-start it with resuscitation.

'That suggests that whatever catastrophic event caused his death was reversing. I don't understand that from a natural disease process'.

Lucy Letby: 'Baby killed by nurse showed signs of life for FIVE HOURS'

A baby allegedly murdered by nurse Lucy Letby showed intermittent signs of life for five hours after a medical crash team called off their desperate attempts to resuscitate him, a court heard today.

www.dailymail.co.uk

This is absolutely heartbreaking

The child "C" was fighting for his life for 5 long hours.

His poor tiny heart tried time and time again.

JMO

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

Thanks. Just going to copy over a few lines -

"Expert witness Dr Dewi Evans said he believes air “trickled” into the infant's circulation via a connecting port on his intravenous drip. [...]

Letby was near the doorway of room one, helping a colleague prepare medication for Child M's twin brother, when the alarm sounded at 4pm, the court heard on Thursday.

Consultant paediatrician Dr Evans said using a syringe to inject air via a port would be slower than a direct injection into the bloodstream.

Prosecutor Nick Johnson KC asked: “Would it follow, if someone chose to do it that way, they would not necessarily be standing over the baby at the time of the collapse?”

Dr Evans replied: “Yes, because you would not necessarily get an instant collapse. It could have occurred over several minutes." [...]

Maybe it’s just me, but I think “trickled “ is an unfortunate way to describe the air going in if what you are saying is that the air was deliberately and maliciously introduced by someone into the baby’s system. To me, “trickled” makes it sound like something that happened accidentally (like you didn’t turn a tap off properly ) rather than a deliberate act, which seems to be what dr evans is saying happened based on the rest of his evidence .

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

Maybe it’s just me, but I think “trickled “ is an unfortunate way to describe the air going in if what you are saying is that the air was deliberately and maliciously introduced by someone into the baby’s system. To me, “trickled” makes it sound like something that happened accidentally (like you didn’t turn a tap off properly ) rather than a deliberate act, which seems to be what dr evans is saying happened based on the rest of his evidence .

I think of tap as like something you turn off and on. You could bump it on or off. The connecting port, you have to deliberately attach something to it. Syringes have to be pushed in and then screwed on. You can't bump it and open it up or drop a syringe and have it accidentally connect. To me it sounds like Dr. Evans is saying air was added into the line below the level of the pump, between the pump and the baby. This would bypass the alarm on the pump, and also provide a short window between the air leaving a syringe and then going into the baby. JMO.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I think of tap as like something you turn off and on. You could bump it on or off. The connecting port, you have to deliberately attach something to it. Syringes have to be pushed in and then screwed on. You can't bump it and open it up or drop a syringe and have it accidentally connect. To me it sounds like Dr. Evans is saying air was added into the line below the level of the pump, between the pump and the baby. This would bypass the alarm on the pump, and also provide a short window between the air leaving a syringe and then going into the baby. JMO.

I’m very sorry to bother people with my questions. I remember in your previous description of how an air embolism works you mentioned that the syringe would have to deliver the air in one relatively brief period. it seems to me that dr evans is suggesting that this would not be the case with baby m. Sm

 

[Dotta]

To me it sounds like Dr. Evans is saying air was added into the line below the level of the pump, between the pump and the baby. This would bypass the alarm on the pump, and also provide a short window between the air leaving a syringe and then going into the baby. JMO.

It sounds really cunning.
JMO