UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #11

[Dotta]

"Slow injection of air"

Baby boy collapsed because of ‘slow injection of air’, Lucy Letby trial hears

Letby, 33, is accused of trying to murder Child M on the afternoon of April 9 2016

www.independent.co.uk

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

I’m very sorry to bother people with my questions. I remember in your previous description of how an air embolism works you mentioned that the syringe would have to deliver the air in one relatively brief period. it seems to me that dr evans is suggesting that this would not be the case with baby m. Sm

In previous testimony, it's been said that some of the lethality of an air embolism would depend on how much air went in and how fast.

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

It sounds really cunning.
JMO

It honestly makes me sick to my stomach to think about it.

 

[ColourPurple]

I think of tap as like something you turn off and on. You could bump it on or off. The connecting port, you have to deliberately attach something to it. Syringes have to be pushed in and then screwed on. You can't bump it and open it up or drop a syringe and have it accidentally connect. To me it sounds like Dr. Evans is saying air was added into the line below the level of the pump, between the pump and the baby. This would bypass the alarm on the pump, and also provide a short window between the air leaving a syringe and then going into the baby. JMO.

I can't work out if he's trying to say that he thinks an air embolism was adminstered in a different, slower way for Baby M than it was for the other babies... or whether he's just saying all of the air embolus were adminstered this way, via a port (which is what I'd always assumed) and just that administering it via a port would be slower than injecting it straight into the bloodstream.

all jmo

"Consultant paediatrician Dr Evans said using a syringe to inject air via a port would be slower than a direct injection into the bloodstream.

Prosecutor Nick Johnson KC asked: “Would it follow, if someone chose to do it that way, they would not necessarily be standing over the baby at the time of the collapse?”

Dr Evans replied: “Yes, because you would not necessarily get an instant collapse. It could have occurred over several minutes."

Baby boy collapsed because of ‘slow injection of air’, Lucy Letby trial hears

Letby, 33, is accused of trying to murder Child M on the afternoon of April 9 2016

www.independent.co.uk

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

I can't work out if he's trying to say that he thinks an air embolism was adminstered in a different, slower way for Baby M than it was for the other babies... or whether he's just saying all of the air embolus were adminstered this way, via a port (which is what I'd always assumed) and just that administering it via a port would be slower than injecting it straight into the bloodstream.

all jmo

"Consultant paediatrician Dr Evans said using a syringe to inject air via a port would be slower than a direct injection into the bloodstream.

Prosecutor Nick Johnson KC asked: “Would it follow, if someone chose to do it that way, they would not necessarily be standing over the baby at the time of the collapse?”

Dr Evans replied: “Yes, because you would not necessarily get an instant collapse. It could have occurred over several minutes."

Baby boy collapsed because of ‘slow injection of air’, Lucy Letby trial hears

Letby, 33, is accused of trying to murder Child M on the afternoon of April 9 2016

www.independent.co.uk

If I understand correctly, I think he is suggesting that the method may have varied. JMO

 

[ColourPurple]

If I understand correctly, I think he is suggesting that the method may have varied. JMO

That does seem to be what it could be saying but then I thought that all the cases were allegedly administered via the port, as if they'd have done it at any point above the port the safety measures designed to detect air would've kicked in.

Unless he's comparing it to the experiments they mentioned before about how much air would be needed, which I think may have been done on animals via injection of air into the bloodstream.

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

That does seem to be what it could be saying but then I thought that all the cases were allegedly administered via the port, as if they'd have done it at any point above the port the safety measures designed to detect air would've kicked in.

Unless he's comparing it to the experiments they mentioned before about how much air would be needed, which I think may have been done on animals via injection of air into the bloodstream.

I think, not sure, but I think DE is discussing the difference between using a syringe directly to the IV or a long line ("directly into the bloodstream"), vs, going into the IV fluid tubing through a port and leaving it there for the pump to push it the rest of the way in ("trickle"?). I'd imagined the former for some of these, but I think he's trying to explain that a person wouldn't need to have been standing right there to have done it. JMO

 

[ColourPurple]

I think, not sure, but I think DE is discussing the difference between using a syringe directly to the IV or a long line ("directly into the bloodstream"), vs, going into the IV fluid tubing through a port and leaving it there for the pump to push it the rest of the way in ("trickle"?). I'd imagined the former for some of these, but I think he's trying to explain that a person wouldn't need to have been standing right there to have done it. JMO

Ah that would make more sense. I thought he was comparing it with injecting air straight into the baby's vein.

 

[bbsaz]

Plus, some babies were (allegedly) attacked multiple times until they died, if you just wanted adrenaline from the drama of a collapse or whatever it's risky to keep attacking the same baby until they pass away rather than just move on and cause another collapse for thrills.

But, if guilty, could that be her way of reinforcing the notion that thid baby really is ill? To evade suspicion? It surely looks less suspicious if a baby collapses 4x in a short period, than 4 separate babies in the same period

 

[Dotta]

Who is going to explain all these medical intricacies to the 12 Jurors - the laypeople?

At least we here, on WS, can ask each other and discuss, or check good ol' Google.

And Jurors?
All alone with their notes.

And yet, the defendant's "Fate" depends on them.

JMO

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

Who is going to explain all these medical intricacies to the 12 Jurors - the laypeople?

At least we here, on WS, can ask each other and discuss, or check good ol' Google.

And Jurors?
All alone with their notes.

And yet, the defendant's "Fate" depends on them.

JMO

That is Dr. Evans' and Dr. Bohin's role, is it not? Presumably the jurors are getting much more extensive testimony than what can be summarized by the press.

 

[Dotta]

That is Dr. Evans' and Dr. Bohin's role, is it not? Presumably the jurors are getting much more extensive testimony than what can be summarized by the press.

I trust Prosecution will summarize all this in clear way in their Closing Speech.

I'm only a little bit worried about "flat, monotonous" voice (Judge's quote).

JMO

 

[Sweeper2000]

This is particularly grim reading today. I’m wondering if the port mentioned for the lines is the same or similar to one used when getting bloods taken? Except presumably some form of valve so it’s a one way system ie not letting blood out?

 

[Sweeper2000]

But, if guilty, could that be her way of reinforcing the notion that thid baby really is ill? To evade suspicion? It surely looks less suspicious if a baby collapses 4x in a short period, than 4 separate babies in the same period

Do you think she may have not been successful the first three times? I would assume it would take an immense amount of calculation to deliver an AE whilst avoiding potential death.

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

In previous testimony, it's been said that some of the lethality of an air embolism would depend on how much air went in and how fast.


Yes , that’s my point. That’s why I think it was strange to describe the air as “trickling” in.

 

[marynnu]

This is particularly grim reading today. I’m wondering if the port mentioned for the lines is the same or similar to one used when getting bloods taken? Except presumably some form of valve so it’s a one way system ie not letting blood out?

(IMO). Blood isn't taken from IV lines. The port would be similar if you had an arterial line though, which is used specifically to draw blood.

 

[Tortoise]

Do you think she may have not been successful the first three times? I would assume it would take an immense amount of calculation to deliver an AE whilst avoiding potential death.

Re baby I - The first three times were (allegedly) air injected into the stomach via the NGT.

 

[Parker Knoll]

I wish there was a W T F button.

 

[Kemug]

Plus, some babies were (allegedly) attacked multiple times until they died, if you just wanted adrenaline from the drama of a collapse or whatever it's risky to keep attacking the same baby until they pass away rather than just move on and cause another collapse for thrills.

Or perhaps LL (if guilty, of course) has the type of personality that doesn't like to admit defeat. There are people like that, and it's normally a good thing. But not in a killer.

 

[Becci]

I know dr bohin ruled out pneumonia as causes of collapses/deaths can anyone remember the reason given pls?

Can pneumonia cause sudden death in infants?


Pneumonia can cause acute respiratory failure and is a relatively frequent cause of death in infants and pre-school age children, many of which are apparently “unexpected”, in that the child may not have seemed severely unwell prior to the collapse/death.