UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #13

[marynnu]

I’m wondering if anyone knows if there would be a difference in symptoms between a ng air embolus and an IV AE? it’s just that the last two cases involve The rash. But if it’s the same one with different alleged methods then I don’t see how it would match up. For instance with child A we heard about the florid skin changes and that was explained how that would happen due to no blood in certain vessels but would that happen with a ng AE ?

IMO there's no link whatsoever between the two. Excess air into the stomach might make the abdomen look 'veiny' if it's very distended. Is that what you're referring to?

 

[Dotta]

"Colleague of Lucy Letby felt 'put out' when the murder-accused nurse said a child should not be moved to intensive care."​

"The shift leader, who was giving evidence from behind a screen, said:
'I can't specifically remember what it was that I was not happy about but he didn't look as well as when I started the shift.

'I remember saying it out loud to Lucy'.

'I asked whether she felt we should move him into nursery one. She said 'no'.
'She felt it was OK and wanted to keep him in nursery two and wanted to keep the brothers together'.

'With hindsight, I wish I had been a bit firmer. I remember being put out that she was quite insistent. I think because I felt she was undermining my decision'.

'She said 'no'. Quite plainly 'no, I don't feel like he should be moved'.

'I had a gut instinct he didn't seem as well.'

Philip Astbury, prosecuting, asked: 'What was the advantage of room one?

She replied:
'Just the ability to have more space if anything was to deteriorate. We have more equipment on hand. We have got the emergency trollies in there'."

Lucy Letby colleague felt 'put out' by murder-accused nurse's decision

Melanie Taylor, that day's shift leader at the Countess of Chester Hospital, felt 'put out' when Lucy Letby (pictured) insisted a triplet should not be moved to intensive care.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[marynnu]

Why would LL want to keep the boys together if baby 3 was in the room where he would be moved to ?

Good question. There's one rather grim reason, isn't there? But who knows.

 

[Tortoise]

I personally have never heard of it for neonates, but I'm sure it's possible. It certainly makes sense given what we know, as you almost certainly wouldn't keep the necessary equipment on an NNU.
Also, given that Child O had a large blood loss due to liver damage, he could well have been peripherally shut down, couldn't he? So what you suggest fits. I'd never have thought of it!

is this relevant? -

"The mother said her son was 'swollen all over his body' and that doctors were 'struggling to get injections into his veins, so eventually injected directly into the bone'"

https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

I personally have never heard of it for neonates, but I'm sure it's possible. It certainly makes sense given what we know, as you almost certainly wouldn't keep the necessary equipment on an NNU.
Also, given that Child O had a large blood loss due to liver damage, he could well have been peripherally shut down, couldn't he? So what you suggest fits. I'd never have thought of it!

I can think off the top of my head only 3 or 4 cases of an attempt being made for IO access in the last 10 years and none with with a baby I was directly involved in at the time - more "heard it through the grapevine" or took care of the kiddo with spot bandaid(s) on their shins. All were full term size or larger (one was 6 months old). Never heard of it being done with a preterm neonate, but not to say it couldn't be done. Our unit is easily 10x larger than CoC was at the time, and has much greater acuity.

All JMO.

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

is this relevant? -

"The mother said her son was 'swollen all over his body' and that doctors were 'struggling to get injections into his veins, so eventually injected directly into the bone'"

https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue

@JosieJo you were right. That's an IO.

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

God these details are so awful.

 

[JosieJo]

is this relevant? -

"The mother said her son was 'swollen all over his body' and that doctors were 'struggling to get injections into his veins, so eventually injected directly into the bone'"

https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue

Yes that IO !

 

[Parker Knoll]

I really don’t get this point - can anyone explain for a simpleton ?

 

[Tortoise]

I really don’t get this point - can anyone explain for a simpleton ?

It appears to be that the unit didn't have the specialised equipment needed to deliver medication into bone, and there was a delay getting this from the children's ward because of the number of staff dealing with the resus, and LL filed an incident report a week later saying this, on the date she was moved out of the unit. I think by sounds of it his veins had shut down.

According to the mother's statement the procedure was done, it might have been delayed because of this.

 

[Sweeper2000]

IMO there's no link whatsoever between the two. Excess air into the stomach might make the abdomen look 'veiny' if it's very distended. Is that what you're referring to?

Yeh kind of. It’s the skin colour changes that I think were described by someone threads ago. thats something I’ve been paying attention to as it seems one of the more definite and conclusive symptoms of an AE.

 

[notsure]

I wonder what Dr Jayaram thought when he heard of these events. Or did he not hear of them at the time?

 

[Tortoise]

I wonder what job LL thought they had lined up for her, and why the doc thought she might not want it straight away.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Wednesday, March 8

 

[marynnu]

is this relevant? -

"The mother said her son was 'swollen all over his body' and that doctors were 'struggling to get injections into his veins, so eventually injected directly into the bone'"

https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue

Spot on, I never saw that! Bless you Tortoise, always on the ball.

 

[Parker Knoll]

Thanks @Tortoise
My suspicious mind immediately thinks ( I may be way off here ) was it usual not to have that equipment in the unit or was it always available ?
If it’s usual had someone (she) moved it out to delay treatment ?

 

[Dotta]

I wonder what job LL thought they had lined up for her, and why the doc thought she might not want it straight away.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Wednesday, March 8

From the above link:

"The judge, Mr Justice James Goss, says the courtroom has warmed up this afternoon, having been chilly this morning. Lucy Letby is continuing to wear a scarf as a 10-minute break now takes place."

Now, can you imagine Jury sitting there shivering with cold?

 

[Dotta]

I wonder what job LL thought they had lined up for her, and why the doc thought she might not want it straight away.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Wednesday, March 8

Lecturing student nurses?
She didn't seem too happy about a student nurse "glued to" her.

JMO

 

[WaxLyrical]

From the above link:

"The judge, Mr Justice James Goss, says the courtroom has warmed up this afternoon, having been chilly this morning. Lucy Letby is continuing to wear a scarf as a 10-minute break now takes place."

Now, can you imagine Jury sitting there shivering with cold?

I’m sure the jury all had their own scarves on too. The UK is having a collective breakdown at the moment because snow has appeared in March. We’ll be talking about this for the next 10 years at least.

 

[Legal]

These are a few ramblings after a few glasses of wine, so apologies in advance if they make no sense! But I've just started watching the documentary on netflix about flight MH370's disappearance and at first the general consensus was mechanical failure or some kind of malfunction - the idea this was a deliberate act by the pilot did not surface till later on (to my understanding). So firstly a general point that people may be more inclined to attribute catastrophic events to accident rather than human design (which is far more frightening imo). However, this made me think of LL because I used to binge watch Air Crash Investigation (as well as Grey's Anatomy ) and one takeaway I had from that was the cause was nearly always due to a catalogue of errors - the Swiss cheese effect, they call it. It was never just one thing that went wrong, but a mechanic hadn't screwed something on properly, and the pilot hadn't checked and then the co-pilot pressed the wrong button etc etc. The point being, I was talking about this years ago with a doctor friend who said that it was exactly the same in healthcare. Things went wrong due to the Swiss cheese effect - a catalogue of errors. So it's possible that if LL is guilty, the substandard (if it was) care in CoC is not an alternative explanation but actually a contributory factor - part of the swiss cheese so to speak. Had there been more staff, better organisation etc, within the hospital, then if LL is guilty, she may not have been able to commit these acts. JMO

 

[Tortoise]

From the above link:

"The judge, Mr Justice James Goss, says the courtroom has warmed up this afternoon, having been chilly this morning. Lucy Letby is continuing to wear a scarf as a 10-minute break now takes place."

Now, can you imagine Jury sitting there shivering with cold?

When I did jury service at the Old Bailey there was no heating in the court. It was mid-summer but it's such a big old building that it never warms up and we had to take extra woollens to have on our laps. The judge told us it was deliberately kept unheated to ensure we didn't fall asleep!