UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #13

[marynnu]

Of course, trauma to the liver is going to be extremely painful. But the fact that screaming wasn't heard is not that bizarre.
For a baby in an incubator to be heard screaming you'd have to be in very close proximity. These are 33 weekers and there is big difference between the level of noise they are capable of making compared to a term infant. The strongest evidence for liver trauma is the post mortem.

It's also possible that such a severe injury - or even pain - can send a baby into shock. I saw this once when a student nurse, with a baby having a lot of sutures removed. She started by crying then suddenly went quiet. The nurse stopped immediately as she explained to me it could be risky to continue and we needed to allow the baby to recover.

 

[JosieJo]

Regarding the pain and screaming didn't baby o collapse a few times across the day ? It's possible if a person injured the baby purposely it could have been after the baby was unwell / collapsed the first time ...if the baby was unwell or semi collapsed at the time of injury they may not cry.

Is it possible that someone may try and injure internal organs to disguise a cause of death ?

Another thought..and that's all it is ..if the liver was injured and bled slightly...is it possible that CPR after an initial injury could cause further bleeding? ..hence unclotted blood on PM .. Will be interesting to see what both sides present

 

[MsBetsy]

Just reading today's testimony where a crash cart was mentioned gave me a massive flashback to grey's anatomy. I used to be a massive fan and I know LL mentioned it in a message. In the show there is constant drama and screaming for crash carts, tragic deaths, colleagues consoling each other, sexy doctors, flirtations and more going on. JMO and a thought but if LL was addicted to grey's anatomy she may have become a nurse thinking it would be like on TV and that's why she found it boring. If guilty, she may have wanted her life to be more like a TV drama.

I keep wondering if she saw the episode in season 12 about the newborn twins. In episode 3, both babies needed liver transplants but only one could be saved? The doctors had to decide which twin would live and which would die.

Letby's text about the show was written around the time of the death of Baby I. Maybe she saw that episode and that's what made her think of it. It was aired in October 2015 but I don't know when it was available in the UK.

 

[esther43]

It's also possible that such a severe injury - or even pain - can send a baby into shock. I saw this once when a student nurse, with a baby having a lot of sutures removed. She started by crying then suddenly went quiet. The nurse stopped immediately as she explained to me it could be risky to continue and we needed to allow the baby to recover.

That's interesting to know and makes complete sense. I can imagine anyone would respond the same to be honest

 

[MsBetsy]

Lecturing student nurses?
She didn't seem too happy about a student nurse "glued to" her.

JMO

I think both Letby and her doctor friend would have liked it if she stayed where she was.
In the end she never had the chance to move on to another hospital, which could be a good thing.

 

[Marantz4250b]

It is fairly bad weather where I am but the bigger problem is the infrastructure in this country is incapable of coping with any variations in temperature. My train was cancelled last summer because the weather was too hot (it was 15 degrees when I arrived at the station), then it's too cold, too wet, and the infamous leaves on the line.

It's truly bizarre, from what I've seen in the various news reports it's really not that bad - I mean an inch of snow at best. I know we don't get really terrible weather in this country on a regular basis - regardless of what people seem to assume - but an inch of snow isn't something which constitutes a national emergency. People just need to not drive like idiots! The whole "terrible weather" excuse is trotted out far too much for my liking these days.

I'm on the North East coast, maybe 2.5 hours drive from Manchester and it's totally different here - I have my garden doors open because the room I'm in is south facing, is boiling and I can barely see my laptop screen due to the sun streaming in.

 

[gerbil]

It's truly bizarre, from what I've seen in the various news reports it's really not that bad - I mean an inch of snow at best. I know we don't get really terrible weather in this country on a regular basis - regardless of what people seem to assume - but an inch of snow isn't something which constitutes a national emergency. People just need to not drive like idiots! The whole "terrible weather" excuse is trotted out far too much for my liking these days.

I'm on the North East coast, maybe 2.5 hours drive from Manchester and it's totally different here - I have my garden doors open because the room I'm in is south facing, is boiling and I can barely see my laptop screen due to the sun streaming in.

I'm in Leeds, so about a 40 min drive from Manchester. It looks ok on the roads outside at the moment but my pulmonary rehab clinic appt today got cancelled because apparently hardly any staff could get in.

 

[Legal]

Half an hour from Manchester and my trains are actually running! I was in shock!

 

[marynnu]

It's truly bizarre, from what I've seen in the various news reports it's really not that bad - I mean an inch of snow at best. I know we don't get really terrible weather in this country on a regular basis - regardless of what people seem to assume - but an inch of snow isn't something which constitutes a national emergency. People just need to not drive like idiots! The whole "terrible weather" excuse is trotted out far too much for my liking these days.

I'm on the North East coast, maybe 2.5 hours drive from Manchester and it's totally different here - I have my garden doors open because the room I'm in is south facing, is boiling and I can barely see my laptop screen due to the sun streaming in.

It's been terrible in parts of the Midlands. We had a few extra inches last night in Brum!

 

[LadyEdgeworth]

It's truly bizarre, from what I've seen in the various news reports it's really not that bad - I mean an inch of snow at best. I know we don't get really terrible weather in this country on a regular basis - regardless of what people seem to assume - but an inch of snow isn't something which constitutes a national emergency. People just need to not drive like idiots! The whole "terrible weather" excuse is trotted out far too much for my liking these days.

I'm on the North East coast, maybe 2.5 hours drive from Manchester and it's totally different here - I have my garden doors open because the room I'm in is south facing, is boiling and I can barely see my laptop screen due to the sun streaming in.

That's crazy, we've had schools shut today in Teesside due to snow! Some parts of the A66 are shut too but it's honestly not THAT bad, a few inches maybe but we just seem to be unable to cope with any type of weather haha

 

[Legal]

Thomas Cashman trial still going on today in Manchester Crown Court.

 

[WaxLyrical]

Thomas Cashman trial still going on today in Manchester Crown Court.

I can’t bear to follow it. I broke down fully while reading the BBC round up yesterday.

 

[Marantz4250b]

That's crazy, we've had schools shut today in Teesside due to snow! Some parts of the A66 are shut too but it's honestly not THAT bad, a few inches maybe but we just seem to be unable to cope with any type of weather haha

22 degrees in my living room now and I've had to open the doors again! Sun is glaring off my work papers and screen - really wishing I hadn't left my sunnies in a beach bar in Jersey n September! :-(

 

[LadyEdgeworth]

22 degrees in my living room now and I've had to open the doors again! Sun is glaring off my work papers and screen - really wishing I hadn't left my sunnies in a beach bar in Jersey n September! :-(

Very jealous, it's 4 degrees here and the snow is melting into that minging brown slush now. No idea why it means the country has to grind to a halt though ha ha

 

[ShireChe]

DBM

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

Of course, trauma to the liver is going to be extremely painful. But the fact that screaming wasn't heard is not that bizarre.
For a baby in an incubator to be heard screaming you'd have to be in very close proximity. These are 33 weekers and there is big difference between the level of noise they are capable of making compared to a term infant. The strongest evidence for liver trauma is the post mortem.

Baby E was also in an incubator and was allegedly screaming so loudly due to alleged trauma inflicted to his throat that his mother heard him him in corridor .

Baby N (34 weeker) was also reported as screaming from his incubator.

I don’t dispute the liver trauma at all. No question it was there .

The question I was raising in my earlier comments was that if the prosecution are saying that this liver trauma was caused several hours before death ( which is what dr evans said, as he attributed the problems the baby had during the morning of his death to the liver trauma ), why wasn’t the baby screaming? Because I would have thought that it would have been painful enough to cause screaming. If an alleged attack on a baby’s throat causing bleeding from the mouth (like baby E) causes sufficient pain to make a baby in an incubator make such audible screams, I would have thought that a liver injury (assuming it is a painful thing) would definitely cause audible screaming .

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

It's also possible that such a severe injury - or even pain - can send a baby into shock. I saw this once when a student nurse, with a baby having a lot of sutures removed. She started by crying then suddenly went quiet. The nurse stopped immediately as she explained to me it could be risky to continue and we needed to allow the baby to recover.

Thank you, Mary. This is exactly the kind of reply I was hoping to get from someone medical, as I couldn’t understand how or why no screaming would have been reported from a baby suffering a liver injury.

 

[marynnu]

Thank you, Mary. This is exactly the kind of reply I was hoping to get from someone medical, as I couldn’t understand how or why no screaming would have been reported from a baby suffering a liver injury.

It's also possible that the injury (or injuries, as I believe there was more than one site) was caused gradually over time, so discomfort rather than one massive pain. This is all speculation of course!

 

[Becky53]

Could the injury have happened after the intubation at 3pm?

Probably way off the mark but looking at some pictures of what intubated newborns it looks like tape around their mouths with the gizmo taped in place so minimal cries/screaming heard.

 

[squish]

It is fairly bad weather where I am but the bigger problem is the infrastructure in this country is incapable of coping with any variations in temperature. My train was cancelled last summer because the weather was too hot (it was 15 degrees when I arrived at the station), then it's too cold, too wet, and the infamous leaves on the line.

Off topic but the reaction to weather in this country is ridiculous. Weather warnings every time it's hot in summer, cold in winter, or rainy or windy or foggy at any time. Every stiff breeze is a named storm. Every hottest part of summer is a "heatwave" or a "drought".

How do they think people in southern Europe cope when it is regularly that hot throughout summer? Or people in Scandinavia where it's snowy all winter?

Summer gets hot. Winter gets cold. It's normal and should not be a reason to shut down the whole country.

One requirement could be for all-weather tyres to be fitted to cars to ensure the roads don't get shut down when it occasionally snows.

Incidentally, I'm on the warm south coast and haven't even had a frost this snowy spell