UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #16

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I read it as LL! But let's see. Is all this new information? I don't recall seeing it before.
It could be read as either if the doctor is the female doctor. Dan really needs to be clearer. But why would Dr A have spent 20 minutes talking to the other dctor about exactly how the CPR was carried out if it was actually LL who carried out the CPR. Surely he'd just ask LL. Therefore my money is on it being the female Dr who carried out the CPR and being worried about having damaged the liver.
 
I read it as LL! But let's see. Is all this new information? I don't recall seeing it before.
YES brand new info from court right now.


Meyers is speaking to a doctor who responded to the call when Q first collapsed.

And he is asking that same doctor about messages the doctor sent to LL< explaining to her that another doctor says she may have hurt Q accidentally when she gave him CPR.

That's what I am getting but I could be wrong.

ETA__to clarify. It was Dr Choc on the witness stand, being asked about messages he sent to LL in June/July, about the triplets.

And he told LL that another doctor, a female I think, was worried that she, herself, may have harmed the baby during CPR
 
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Dan O'Donoghue

Ms Letby's defence lawyer, Ben Myers KC, is now questioning the doctor. He points out that the medic arrived on neonatal unit at 09:17 (Child Q crashed just after 9am). Myers says 'a fair amount of activity had happened already at that point', the doctor agrees

He also agrees that Child Q had a 'rapid' recovery from the collapse.

Mr Myers has just asked the doctor to explain to the court, in simple terms, what NEC is and what impact it has on babies
Alderhey themselves ruled out NEC right?
 
Yes, there are two doctors. But Meyers seems to be taking them through the messages that the doctor who is now testifying, sent to LL back in June/July.

And he is apparently the doctor that arrived when Q first collapsed about 9:10 am.

who do you mean by 'his' ? Do you mean Meyer's messages or the doctor on the stands messages to her?

OMG how confusing, Dan really needs to start using names instead of he and her lol. And so do I tbf lol

I think Myers is taking Dr A/choc through the messages Dr A sent to Ll in June/July. And I think the "her" referred to in those messages is the lady doctor , rather than LL.
 
I read it to be his texts to LL in June/July not another doctors.
Yes, it was about messages sent to LL in June/July. But Meyers is saying the doctor who is now testifying sent those messages to LL.

Is it the female doctor? Or doctor Choc? IDK
 
OMG how confusing, Dan really needs to start using names instead of he and her lol. And so do I tbf lol

I think Myers is taking Dr A/choc through the messages Dr A sent to Ll in June/July. And I think the "her" referred to in those messages is the lady doctor , rather than LL.
I am going to repost the tweets but on one page so we can follow it easier and with more clarity.We need Tortoise to save us from ourselves.
 
YES brand new info from court right now.


Meyers is speaking to a doctor who responded to the call when Q first collapsed.

And he is asking that same doctor about messages the doctor sent to LL< explaining to her that another doctor says she may have hurt Q accidentally when she gave him CPR.

That's what I am getting but I could be wrong.
Yup but the "she" coudl be either LL or the other doctor, depending on whether the other doctor is female or male, and the baby is Baby O not Baby Q.

Baby O (and P) had liver damage on the post mortems but would the other doctor had known the post mortem results at that point?
 
yes, it is a male doctor




Dan O'Donoghue


Ms Letby is accused of attempting to murder the infant on 25 June 2016 after allegedly murdering two triplets, Child O and P, on the previous two days. First in the witness box today is a doctor, who can't be named for legal reasons. He worked the 25 June day shift

The medic was called to the neonatal unit shortly after 9am to treat Child Q after he vomited and needed breathing support. The court previously heard that Ms Letby was Child Q's designated nurse that day. Ms Letby was caring for another baby when Child Q desaturated

The doctor's notes record that after an hour Child Q's sats had improved and was no longer needing as intensive breathing support

His notes from that morning state 'presumed sepsis with secondary jaundice' for the cause of Child Q's collapse

Child Q made a reasonable recovery through the day, but by 19:20 he was described as 'looking tired' and the doctor took the decision to intubate him and place on a ventilator

The following day, Child Q's gases were unsatisfactory and it was suspected that he had necrotising enterocolitis (a serious condition that can affect newborns). He was transferred to Alder Hey where he quickly stabilised - his breathing tube was removed on 27 June

Ms Letby's defence lawyer, Ben Myers KC, is now questioning the doctor. He points out that the medic arrived on neonatal unit at 09:17 (Child Q crashed just after 9am). Myers says 'a fair amount of activity had happened already at that point', the doctor agrees

He also agrees that Child Q had a 'rapid' recovery from the collapse.

Mr Myers has just asked the doctor to explain to the court, in simple terms, what NEC is and what impact it has on babies
https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue/status/1643565896353341440/analytics
Mr Myers is taking the doctor over messages he sent to Ms Letby in late June/early July in regards to Child O - one of the triplet brothers who died. The court has previously heard that the boy was found with an 'impact' injury to his liver in post-mortem

In the messages, the doctor tells Ms Letby that another doctor on the unit was concerned that Child O's liver injury 'may have been caused by her chest compressions'

He says in those messages to Ms Letby that he spent '20mins in a cubicle going over everything' with the doctor, he says 'CPR was all at fifth rib space between the nipples'

But he says to Mr Myers that he does not have any independent recollection of that resuscitation and that he was managing the airway during it

The defence have previously argued that the liver injury sustained by Child O was a result of CPR - this is something that was rejected by expert pathologist Dr Andreas Marnerides, who reviewed the case, last week
 
By LL's chest comperessions or a lady doctor's chest compressions? Sounds like the latter.

Anyone know if 'CPR was all at fifth rib space between the nipples' is the correct way to do it?


I was taught to assess between the nipples then go a finger breadth or 2 below (depending on size of baby).
 
OKAY----NOW we know why Meyers was so obsessed with the idea that CPR caused the liver injuries. He found a tweet, allegedly, in which a doctor theorised that LL may have accidentally caused the liver injury in Baby O during CPR.

I wonder if this was a tweet from Dr Choc or is another doctor also messaging her?

@MrDanDonoghue


Mr Myers is taking the doctor over messages he sent to Ms Letby in late June/early July in regards to Child O - one of the triplet brothers who died. The court has previously heard that the boy was found with an 'impact' injury to his liver in post-mortem

In the messages, the doctor tells Ms Letby that another doctor on the unit was concerned that Child O's liver injury 'may have been caused by her chest compressions'

He says in those messages to Ms Letby that he spent '20mins in a cubicle going over everything' with the doctor, he says 'CPR was all at fifth rib space between the nipples'

I think that, to be polite and assume the best, the doctors at that time were still considering that Letby might be incompetent rather than murderous. They can’t come straight out and accuse or insinuate she’s committed assault on a baby.

I hope I’m allowed to say now that I always suspected the liver injuries were actually caused during CPR, but deliberately and violently (if guilty, and accidentally if innocent)
 
yes, it is a male doctor

Dan O'Donoghue

Ms Letby is accused of attempting to murder the infant on 25 June 2016 after allegedly murdering two triplets, Child O and P, on the previous two days. First in the witness box today is a doctor, who can't be named for legal reasons. He worked the 25 June day shift

The medic was called to the neonatal unit shortly after 9am to treat Child Q after he vomited and needed breathing support. The court previously heard that Ms Letby was Child Q's designated nurse that day. Ms Letby was caring for another baby when Child Q desaturated

The doctor's notes record that after an hour Child Q's sats had improved and was no longer needing as intensive breathing support

His notes from that morning state 'presumed sepsis with secondary jaundice' for the cause of Child Q's collapse

Child Q made a reasonable recovery through the day, but by 19:20 he was described as 'looking tired' and the doctor took the decision to intubate him and place on a ventilator

The following day, Child Q's gases were unsatisfactory and it was suspected that he had necrotising enterocolitis (a serious condition that can affect newborns). He was transferred to Alder Hey where he quickly stabilised - his breathing tube was removed on 27 June

Ms Letby's defence lawyer, Ben Myers KC, is now questioning the doctor. He points out that the medic arrived on neonatal unit at 09:17 (Child Q crashed just after 9am). Myers says 'a fair amount of activity had happened already at that point', the doctor agrees

He also agrees that Child Q had a 'rapid' recovery from the collapse.

Mr Myers has just asked the doctor to explain to the court, in simple terms, what NEC is and what impact it has on babies
Mr Myers is taking the doctor over messages he sent to Ms Letby in late June/early July in regards to Child O - one of the triplet brothers who died. The court has previously heard that the boy was found with an 'impact' injury to his liver in post-mortem

In the messages, the doctor tells Ms Letby that another doctor on the unit was concerned that Child O's liver injury 'may have been caused by her chest compressions'

He says in those messages to Ms Letby that he spent '20mins in a cubicle going over everything' with the doctor, he says 'CPR was all at fifth rib space between the nipples'

But he says to Mr Myers that he does not have any independent recollection of that resuscitation and that he was managing the airway during it

The defence have previously argued that the liver injury sustained by Child O was a result of CPR - this is something that was rejected by expert pathologist Dr Andreas Marnerides, who reviewed the case, last week

Yup the doctor on the stand is DR A/doc choc so is male but we dont know the sex of the other doctor who Dr A says was concerned about the CPR.

If the other doctor is male then the "her" in the sentence "Another doctor on the unit was concerned that Child O's liver injury 'may have been caused by her chest compressions'"" is LL, but if the other doctor is female the "her" could be either the female doctor or LL
 
I think that, to be polite and assume the best, the doctors at that time were still considering that Letby might be incompetent rather than murderous. They can’t come straight out and accuse or insinuate she’s committed assault on a baby.

I hope I’m allowed to say now that I always suspected the liver injuries were actually caused during CPR, but deliberately and violently (if guilty, and accidentally if innocent)

For me personally, whether questioning themselves or LL, I feel that this doctor was just trying to find an explanation and could think of nothing else. If you're not thinking assault it's the only other theoretical possibility, though unlikely in the extreme. JMO.
 
For me personally, whether questioning themselves or LL, I feel that this doctor was just trying to find an explanation and could think of nothing else. If you're not thinking assault it's the only other theoretical possibility, though unlikely in the extreme. JMO.
The other triplet also had liver injury.
Who took part in his resus?
 
For me personally, whether questioning themselves or LL, I feel that this doctor was just trying to find an explanation and could think of nothing else. If you're not thinking assault it's the only other theoretical possibility, though unlikely in the extreme. JMO.
Exactly if they've had the PM results and it included liver injury they would be asking how the hell that could have happened. And as the only physical "event" they would have been aware of was CPR they probably would discuss whether CPR could have caused it... even if it was as unlikely as a man in the middle of a desert being killed by a pot that had fallen out of a helicopter!
 
Yup the doctor on the stand is DR A/doc choc so is male but we dont know the sex of the other doctor who Dr A says was concerned about the CPR.

If the other doctor is male then the "her" in the sentence "Another doctor on the unit was concerned that Child O's liver injury 'may have been caused by her chest compressions'"" is LL, but if the other doctor is female the "her" could be either the female doctor or LL
YES---I think we got it

So I assumed the 'her' was referring to LL, but it may have been the female doctor who was looking after Q also. And maybe Dr Choc was just describing the incident to LL

I think the reason we have not seen the messages yet is because the prosecution does not really want the jury to hear that a doctor thought CPR may be the cause of the bruises.

And NOW we know why Meyers was hitting that point home so hard.
 
Anyone got any ideas on the individual most likely to actually do the chest compressionS? In other cases it’s been the nurse who has written the meds etc so assumed the nurse would be more non hands role whereas the doctor would be the lead practitioner. I would guess the nurse would be hands on until a doctor arrived and then they take over.
 
YES---I think we got it

So I assumed the 'her' was referring to LL, but it may have been the female doctor who was looking after Q also. And maybe Dr Choc was just describing the incident to LL

I think the reason we have not seen the messages yet is because the prosecution does not really want the jury to hear that a doctor thought CPR may be the cause of the bruises.

And NOW we know why Meyers was hitting that point home so hard.
But the prosecution would know that the texts were going to be used. Plus if the liver injury/bruising in O and P was caused by CPR, it still wouldn't explain the initial collapses in both babies.
 
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