UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #16

[esther43]

So it was ll doing the resus then?

nope sorry.

He told Ms Letby he spent 20 minutes "in a cubicle going over everything" with the doctor.
The doctor told Mr Myers it was a "busy time on unit" and "a lot of introspection" was occurring.
He said he wanted to "reassure" the doctor the correct CPR procedure had been followed, but when pressed by Mr Myers as to whether he could remember the CPR he said "I don't".
"I think I was managing the airway and at some point changed positions, I don't recall who was doing what. I was focusing on the task in hand," he said.

Lucy Letby trial: Fluid and air forced into baby's stomach, jury told

A medical expert agrees with prosecutors who allege liquid was "forced" down a baby's nasogastric tube.

www.bbc.co.uk

Well you could be right. (That is was the doc delivering the CPR,) Its not entirely clear though. It's often normal for the nurse to take this role, and it was rumoured at the time that there were questions around LLs practice, not related to her harming babies. I see it as an either or still.

 

[Dotta]

I wonder...

LL seemed to revel in chaos, drama.

With Babies dying "on her watch" she also seemed to play a victim and garner attention and sympathy.
I mean - all those texts from colleagues paying attention to her, advising her to take a break, etc.

Attention from Dr A, his constant praise, reassuring to her:
"Am I good enough?".

Collapsing Babies seemed to draw attention to her, making her a focus too.

Being with parents of dead Babies put her in centre of attention also - she was bathing the Babies, preparing memory boxes, talking about them, taking photos.
Revelling in "thanks" given by parents.

Usually nurses don't draw attention to themselves, they are quick, efficient, unobtrusive - moving like shadows.

JMO

 

[Sweeper2000]

I wonder...

LL seemed to revel in chaos, drama.

With Babies dying "on her watch" she also seemed to play a victim and garner attention and sympathy.
I mean - all those texts from colleagues paying attention to her, advising her to take a break, etc.

Attention from Dr A, his constant praise, reassuring to her:
"Am I good enough?".

Collapsing Babies seemed to draw attention to her, making her a focus too.

Being with parents of dead Babies put her in centre of attention also - she was bathing the Babies, preparing memory boxes, talking about them, taking photos.
Revelling in "thanks" given by parents.

Usually nurses don't draw attention to themselves, they are quick, efficient, unobtrusive - moving like shadows.

JMO

I think your talking about a cat.

 

[Supernovae]

It looks correct. We weren't taught about the intercostal space, just to aim for 1 finger width from the nipples, or 2 for higger babies, which as you can see is about right.
I can see how the ribs might press on the top of the liver, but not how catastrophic injury would occur. Although CPR isn't very common on NNUs, I probably did compressions about 15-20 times in all as I had quite a long career. As I've said before, the risk of injuring the liver (or anything else) just wasn't on anyone's radar. You'd have to be doing sonething quite extreme, IMO.

IIRC he questioned Dr Marnerides about whether the injury could have been caused by a line. It struck me as another thing that he couldn't have come up with completely by himself. I don't have any medical training so I don't know whether the diagram I posted earlier reflects practice as it would have been in 2016, but looking at the lines on the diagram and the anatomy, I wonder if the suggestion is that the chest compressions could have pushed the lines against the liver, somehow.

 

[Supernovae]

It looks correct. We weren't taught about the intercostal space, just to aim for 1 finger width from the nipples, or 2 for higger babies, which as you can see is about right.
I can see how the ribs might press on the top of the liver, but not how catastrophic injury would occur. Although CPR isn't very common on NNUs, I probably did compressions about 15-20 times in all as I had quite a long career. As I've said before, the risk of injuring the liver (or anything else) just wasn't on anyone's radar. You'd have to be doing sonething quite extreme, IMO.

IIRC he questioned Dr Marnerides about whether the injury could have been caused by a line. It struck me as another thing that he couldn't have come up with completely by himself. I don't have any medical training so I don't know whether the diagram I posted earlier reflects practice as it would have been in 2016, but looking at the lines on the diagram and the anatomy, I wonder if the suggestion is that the chest compressions could have pushed the lines against the liver, somehow.

 

[Sundial]

Can this case get even MORE bizarre?

There’s another one that caught my eye earlier too with this greys anatomy; the calling of the priest to baptise a baby.

To add; none of these points with greys anatomy could have anything to do with it, and in these sad awful circumstances with baptism etc it could be seen as normal practice given the circumstances.

And yet on there other hand there are quite a few similarities between this show and the evidence heard so far.

All JMO

 

[katydid23]

yes, it is a male doctor

Dan O'Donoghue

Ms Letby is accused of attempting to murder the infant on 25 June 2016 after allegedly murdering two triplets, Child O and P, on the previous two days. First in the witness box today is a doctor, who can't be named for legal reasons. He worked the 25 June day shift

The medic was called to the neonatal unit shortly after 9am to treat Child Q after he vomited and needed breathing support. The court previously heard that Ms Letby was Child Q's designated nurse that day. Ms Letby was caring for another baby when Child Q desaturated

The doctor's notes record that after an hour Child Q's sats had improved and was no longer needing as intensive breathing support

His notes from that morning state 'presumed sepsis with secondary jaundice' for the cause of Child Q's collapse

Child Q made a reasonable recovery through the day, but by 19:20 he was described as 'looking tired' and the doctor took the decision to intubate him and place on a ventilator

The following day, Child Q's gases were unsatisfactory and it was suspected that he had necrotising enterocolitis (a serious condition that can affect newborns). He was transferred to Alder Hey where he quickly stabilised - his breathing tube was removed on 27 June

Ms Letby's defence lawyer, Ben Myers KC, is now questioning the doctor. He points out that the medic arrived on neonatal unit at 09:17 (Child Q crashed just after 9am). Myers says 'a fair amount of activity had happened already at that point', the doctor agrees

He also agrees that Child Q had a 'rapid' recovery from the collapse.

Mr Myers has just asked the doctor to explain to the court, in simple terms, what NEC is and what impact it has on babies

https://twitter.com/x/status/1643565896353341440

Mr Myers is taking the doctor over messages he sent to Ms Letby in late June/early July in regards to Child O - one of the triplet brothers who died. The court has previously heard that the boy was found with an 'impact' injury to his liver in post-mortem

In the messages, the doctor tells Ms Letby that another doctor on the unit was concerned that Child O's liver injury 'may have been caused by her chest compressions'

He says in those messages to Ms Letby that he spent '20mins in a cubicle going over everything' with the doctor, he says 'CPR was all at fifth rib space between the nipples'

But he says to Mr Myers that he does not have any independent recollection of that resuscitation and that he was managing the airway during it

The defence have previously argued that the liver injury sustained by Child O was a result of CPR - this is something that was rejected by expert pathologist Dr Andreas Marnerides, who reviewed the case, last week

So it seems that Dr Choc was messaging Lucy into July, at least. And by that time she had been removed from the floor and Dr Choc would have known about the alleged accusations.

It helps me understand why LL was so upset when she first heard his name as he came to testify in her trial. At one time he was very close to her and she trusted him very much.

I am so curious what he thinks about the situation now. Does he believe the prosecution is mistaken?

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

Selling chocolates?

Or home-baked choc chip cookies?
ETA: With real butter

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

Just chipping in;
The female doctor who said she was worried she may have caused damage during CPR, i wonder if this the same (female) doctor that dr choc went off to the staff room with; Dr Tea (before the kettle had even had chance to boil), Dr choc was then called back to the unit. Could this be the same doctor he was with?

Interestingly I think back to the conversations he was having with LL around this time via message where he’d said something to her (I can’t recall quite the exact words); no-one is saying xyz (about her being neglectful or causing harm?)…

Dr choc is then having a conversation in cubicle with female Dr tea where she has said she (herself) was worried she may have injured the baby during CPR. Dr choc is then relaying this back to LL and then we have dr gibbs asking who had been with the baby at the time.

All JMO just trying to make sense of evidence we’ve had previously and where it fits in the timeline.

Your post gave me a lightbulb moment.
Is Female Dr. Tea the same one that has spoken about LL acting inappropriately with the parents?
Are Dr. Tea and Dr. Choc both anonymous?
Could LL have been jealous of their relationship? Could there have been a love triangle going on? Could LL have possibly done this to frame Dr. Tea?
Maybe Dr. Tea and Dr. Choc asked for anonymity in exchange for giving evidence?

JMO and IF guilt

 

[katydid23]

Your post gave me a lightbulb moment.
Is Female Dr. Tea the same one that has spoken about LL acting inappropriately with the parents?
Are Dr. Tea and Dr. Choc both anonymous?
Could LL have been jealous of their relationship? Could there have been a love triangle going on? Could LL have possibly done this to frame Dr. Tea?
Maybe Dr. Tea and Dr. Choc asked for anonymity in exchange for giving evidence?

JMO and IF guilt

Even if there was not an actual love triangle, LL might have been jealous of the close association Dr Choc and Dr Tea may have shared, as colleagues.

Allegedly, I do think it's possible she wanted Dr Tea to be burdened with the sudden collapse of a 3rd baby on her watch.

As the 2 doctors were walking away for tea break, could LL have allegedly injected more air quickly, to mess up their little tea party?

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

Even if there was not an actual love triangle, LL might have been jealous of the close association Dr Choc and Dr Tea may have shared, as colleagues.

Allegedly, I do think it's possible she wanted Dr Tea to be burdened with the sudden collapse of a 3rd baby on her watch.

As the 2 doctors were walking away for tea break, could LL have allegedly injected more air quickly, to mess up their little tea party?

I agree. I am not sure if it was a love triangle but I was brainstorming.

I also have to keep reminding myself that we have not been privy to, or likely ever will be, of non-case related message exchanges between LL and Dr. Choc and Dr. Choc and Dr. Tea. There is a whole world of non-case-related communication that has gone on between all parties.
IMO, if there was no actual relationship between Dr. Choc and LL, I think she was using him and leading him on for her own self-worth. enjoying the attention, but I think she saw Dr.Tea as a threat to her attention from Dr. Choc, this i feel would be true even more so if there was a relationship.
Do we know if DR. Tea and/or Dr. Choc were working at the unit for the entire period involved in the case or not?

JMO and IF guilty

 

[Eloise]

Your post gave me a lightbulb moment.
Is Female Dr. Tea the same one that has spoken about LL acting inappropriately with the parents?
Are Dr. Tea and Dr. Choc both anonymous?
Could LL have been jealous of their relationship? Could there have been a love triangle going on? Could LL have possibly done this to frame Dr. Tea?
Maybe Dr. Tea and Dr. Choc asked for anonymity in exchange for giving evidence?

JMO and IF guilt

They're not anonymous, their names just aren't being published in the media. Everyone in the courtroom knows their names and who they are. So far its only been stated that names are staying out of media reports to prevent the identification of the babies and their families.

 

[marynnu]

IIRC he questioned Dr Marnerides about whether the injury could have been caused by a line. It struck me as another thing that he couldn't have come up with completely by himself. I don't have any medical training so I don't know whether the diagram I posted earlier reflects practice as it would have been in 2016, but looking at the lines on the diagram and the anatomy, I wonder if the suggestion is that the chest compressions could have pushed the lines against the liver, somehow.

I think he might have been talking about a UVC? I don't think chest compressions would affect this, but if badly positioned in the first place it could potentially damage the liver (though I'd suspect not in the same way as an impact). The position is always checked on Xray after insertion & it would be apparent on post mortem, so I don't think this was a realistic suggestion. JMO

 

[ColourPurple]

Your post gave me a lightbulb moment.
Is Female Dr. Tea the same one that has spoken about LL acting inappropriately with the parents?
Are Dr. Tea and Dr. Choc both anonymous?
Could LL have been jealous of their relationship? Could there have been a love triangle going on? Could LL have possibly done this to frame Dr. Tea?
Maybe Dr. Tea and Dr. Choc asked for anonymity in exchange for giving evidence?

JMO and IF guilt

Even if there was not an actual love triangle, LL might have been jealous of the close association Dr Choc and Dr Tea may have shared, as colleagues.

Allegedly, I do think it's possible she wanted Dr Tea to be burdened with the sudden collapse of a 3rd baby on her watch.

As the 2 doctors were walking away for tea break, could LL have allegedly injected more air quickly, to mess up their little tea party?

I agree. I am not sure if it was a love triangle but I was brainstorming.

I also have to keep reminding myself that we have not been privy to, or likely ever will be, of non-case related message exchanges between LL and Dr. Choc and Dr. Choc and Dr. Tea. There is a whole world of non-case-related communication that has gone on between all parties.
IMO, if there was no actual relationship between Dr. Choc and LL, I think she was using him and leading him on for her own self-worth. enjoying the attention, but I think she saw Dr.Tea as a threat to her attention from Dr. Choc, this i feel would be true even more so if there was a relationship.
Do we know if DR. Tea and/or Dr. Choc were working at the unit for the entire period involved in the case or not?

JMO and IF guilty

Funnily enough I did wonder whether LL had seen Doc Choc disappear into a cubicle with Dr Tea for 20 minutes and the messages were him explaining why...but we don't know if LL was still on the ward at that point.

We only know the text messages about the cubicle incident are late June/July and after baby O's death. Baby O died on the 23rd June 2015,Baby P on 24th, Q was allegedly attacked on 25 June. Then she would've had some days off before she worked her final three shifts on the ward the following week. So the cubicle texts could well have been while she was still on the ward.

Re the theory, if guilty, of her possibly doing the attacks and liver damage through jealousy of Dr Tea or because Dr Tea found LL's behaviour odd. Both triplets had liver bruising and the tea break incident, and finding LL's behaviour odd (re leaving here alive and the memory box) were both for baby P, so the liver bruising on Baby O had already happened at that point. So that doesn't really match up timewise.

Thinking about it, I know we heard about Dr Tea in relation to Baby P's resu , was she mentioned in baby O's resus? Other than what we're hearing now about the cubicle conversation, assuming that was her and not another unnamed lady doc?

All IMO, if guilty etc

 

[ColourPurple]

They're not anonymous, their names just aren't being published in the media. Everyone in the courtroom knows their names and who they are. So far its only been stated that names are staying out of media reports to prevent the identification of the babies and their families.

Weirdly it's the other way round. The babies are anonymous because identifying them would identify their parents who are adult witnesses, and all adult witnesses have been given the option of anonymity. The babies names were reported initially. But, yes by anonymity it's just that their names can't be reported publicly.

 

[Kemug]

Something which I would be interested to know is if, after LL was moved to clerical duties, she continued her pattern of almost constant texting to friends and colleagues. And her favourite doctor of course. I can imagine them all being torn between believing in her innocence and wanting to show trust and loyalty, and yet perhaps gradually coming to suspect her of harming the babies, and then perhaps trying to wriggle out of their previous friendship. All very tricky.

 

[Dotta]

There’s another one that caught my eye earlier too with this greys anatomy; the calling of the priest to baptise a baby.

To add; none of these points with greys anatomy could have anything to do with it, and in these sad awful circumstances with baptism etc it could be seen as normal practice given the circumstances.

And yet on there other hand there are quite a few similarities between this show and the evidence heard so far.

All JMO

You know,
This "Grey's anatomy" thing seems really bizarre but it (allegedly) might show a blurring line between fiction and reality in one's mind.

Wanting to recreate fictional world to add some "sparkle" to one's boring existence.

But, the irony is that, if guilty, she can "star" in her own documenary series.

PS
I have never watched G'sA as I hate medical soap operas

JMO

 

[ColourPurple]

Something which I would be interested to know is if, after LL was moved to clerical duties, she continued her pattern of almost constant texting to friends and colleagues. And her favourite doctor of course. I can imagine them all being torn between believing in her innocence and wanting to show trust and loyalty, and yet perhaps gradually coming to suspect her of harming the babies, and then perhaps trying to wriggle out of their previous friendship. All very tricky.

This is the bit I'm waiting to see! What does she tell her colleagues... What does she tell her parents...

 

[Dotta]

This is the bit I'm waiting to see! What does she tell her colleagues... What does she tell her parents...

Something really convincing judging by support and sympathy she got and is still getting.

JMO

 

[bbsaz]

Weirdly it's the other way round. The babies are anonymous because identifying them would identify their parents who are adult witnesses, and all adult witnesses have been given the option of anonymity. The babies names were reported initially. But, yes by anonymity it's just that their names can't be reported publicly.

I think it is in part also to protect siblings. Some siblings were unaware their baby sister/brother had (potentially) died in anything other than a natural way.

Imagine you are 10 and you hear your siblings name on the car radio and for the last 7yrs you've been told they died because they were born too early