UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #18

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

It was said she was supposed to put them in the confidential waste bin at the end of the shift. They aren't kept they're destroyed.

Thanks for this info. I wonder where the bin was located? Did she simply fail to bin them because she wanted to leave as directly and quickly as possible? Or was she 'hoarding' / keeping a hold of them for some sort of sentimental reason or personal record keeping reminder?

The possible urge to hold onto things seems a bit similar to keeping photos of cards she'd sent to people? JMO

It is considered very 'wrong' to leave an NHS job with confidential waste? In the same way as it would be if one worked in say, a bank? Is it the sort of thing a person could get reprimanded at work for?

 

[Sweeper2000]

Sorry for jumping in with such a question at this late stage... but...

What *was* LL supposed to have done with the handover sheets?

I assume she should have usually filed them somewhere at her workplace before getting changed and leaving to go home -or- have shredded / destroyed them at her workplace after handing over? Were they a form of record that was supposed to be kept?

Why didn't she do the thing she was supposed to do? Why did she take them home?

What I'm wondering is if the documents were always supposed to be destroyed at work, then maybe she thought of them as being 'nil value', effectively litter that she hadn't put in the correct trash on her way out. Maybe she was so quick to leave work she would stuff a handover sheet in her pocket and be off and never really thought much about them except putting them to one side 'securely' at home in the full knowledge that they really ought to be shredded because of confidential data as opposed to put in the litter intact

are Supposed to be disposed of securely at end of shift. New one every Shift. i Can’t remember what she said about the handover notes and taking them but she did say she didn’t know how to dispose of them so put them in a folder. She had some real medical notes ie a blood gas report and handwritten drug report for a baby in the charges which she said she took by accident.

she had over 250 handover sheets and it’s been a debate of point the reasons why, some have said it was wilful others just a bad habit, some have said it shows obsessional thinking. Regardless of that how to bring that evidence into the charges is difficult to fathom. It’s been debated why she didn’t just get rid of them, there hasn’t been much to suggest what if any value they held to her and if she did indeed just put them at the back of the cupboard and forgot about them.

your point is valid, she could literally just have it in pocket and in a rush to get home not bin it. She must have done that over 250 times in a year though.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Thanks for this info. I wonder where the bin was located? Did she simply fail to bin them because she wanted to leave as directly and quickly as possible? Or was she 'hoarding' / keeping a hold of them for some sort of sentimental reason or personal record keeping reminder?

The possible urge to hold onto things seems a bit similar to keeping photos of cards she'd sent to people? JMO

It is considered very 'wrong' to leave an NHS job with confidential waste? In the same way as it would be if one worked in say, a bank? Is it the sort of thing a person could get reprimanded at work for?

It wound be considered very wrong todo it over 250 times in a year yes. I think it’s reasonable to assume the majority of medical staff, nurse or not will take home something they shouldn’t at some point in their career. Once is a mistake, twice is still a mistake, three times in a year no problem. 250 in a year means you have some sort of problem imo.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

are Supposed to be disposed of securely at end of shift. New one every Shift. i Can’t remember what she said about the handover notes and taking them but she did say she didn’t know how to dispose of them so put them in a folder. She had some real medical notes ie a blood gas report and handwritten drug report for a baby in the charges which she said she took by accident.

she had over 250 handover sheets and it’s been a debate of point the reasons why, some have said it was wilful others just a bad habit, some have said it shows obsessional thinking. Regardless of that how to bring that evidence into the charges is difficult to fathom. It’s been debated why she didn’t just get rid of them, there hasn’t been much to suggest what if any value they held to her and if she did indeed just put them at the back of the cupboard and forgot about them.

your point is valid, she could literally just have it in pocket and in a rush to get home not bin it. She must have done that over 250 times in a year though.

So it was pretty much her habitual behaviour to take the handover sheet home. Maybe on the days she didn't, that was because whomsoever she was handing over with or another member of staff took it to bin it and she couldn't really say 'oh no don't do that'.

I wonder, was she secretly trying to build some sort of case against the hospital to do with her long working hours or suchlike? Or she just likes to keep mementos of daily life. Well I guess you've all discussed it in depth but thank you for the information.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

It wound be considered very wrong todo it over 250 times in a year yes. I think it’s reasonable to assume the majority of medical staff, nurse or not will take home something they shouldn’t at some point in their career. Once is a mistake, twice is still a mistake, three times in a year no problem. 250 in a year means you have some sort of problem imo.

thanks for this info. Definitely seems it was her default stance to take the sheet home, for whatever reason. Strange.

 

[Dotta]

Thanks for this info. I wonder where the bin was located? Did she simply fail to bin them because she wanted to leave as directly and quickly as possible? Or was she 'hoarding' / keeping a hold of them for some sort of sentimental reason or personal record keeping reminder?

The possible urge to hold onto things seems a bit similar to keeping photos of cards she'd sent to people? JMO

It is considered very 'wrong' to leave an NHS job with confidential waste? In the same way as it would be if one worked in say, a bank? Is it the sort of thing a person could get reprimanded at work for?

Health related sensitive data.

Huuuuge fines for such data breach
(in my country/EU)

 

[Sweeper2000]

So it was pretty much her habitual behaviour to take the handover sheet home. Maybe on the days she didn't, that was because whomsoever she was handing over with or another member of staff took it to bin it and she couldn't really say 'oh no don't do that'.

I wonder, was she secretly trying to build some sort of case against the hospital to do with her long working hours or suchlike? Or she just likes to keep mementos of daily life. Well I guess you've all discussed it in depth but thank you for the information.

There is testimony and evidence of her trying to gather information about the years events as a result of her suspension from the unit. What that process involved is kind of unknown at this point and may well feature in the coming weeks evidence but is a big IF. She may or may not take the stand.

bits of evidence that are debated. There were writings in her personal diary about collapses and deaths on the unit in which she was involved but they are in a different colour to her everyday writing so it’s debated if they were added before or after her personal investigation. I think they were the initials of the babies, on the dates of the alleged attacks and deaths. I can’t say if they covered all of the alleged attacks though. Underneath her bed a number of handover notes were discovered in a Morrison’s bag, I think 31 of them with most relating to babies in the cases but some were babies notes were not. The blood gas record and handwritten log of drugs were also found in that bag. In her diary there were three mentions of babies in the cases thought to have been written at the time of the events. These were all babies that survived and went home. This diary also contained the “not good enough” note.

i also thought it may be possible that these were taken as a kind of record of her daily work life. Akin to the way people keep concert tickets and keep a passport with the stamps showing where they have been. Also like the way people keep things with personal value ie birthday cards, personal correspondence of any form the same way she took photos of the condolences card she sent to the funeral. her keeping the handover notes is strange and also much discussed. Each has their opinion.

if anyone else can add anything please do.

eta. All of the handover notes dated from 2015 to 2016.

ps eta. I’m not mentioning the shredder.

 

[Marantz4250b]

It wound be considered very wrong todo it over 250 times in a year yes. I think it’s reasonable to assume the majority of medical staff, nurse or not will take home something they shouldn’t at some point in their career. Once is a mistake, twice is still a mistake, three times in a year no problem. 250 in a year means you have some sort of problem imo.

Yes, indeed!

A significant problem for sure. I'm not sure that I see that all these collected hand-over sheets point towards her having committed these crimes, though. Being a bit strange, yes, but I don't see how any of this translates into evidence of murder and attempted murder.

 

[Marantz4250b]

So it was pretty much her habitual behaviour to take the handover sheet home. Maybe on the days she didn't, that was because whomsoever she was handing over with or another member of staff took it to bin it and she couldn't really say 'oh no don't do that'.

I wonder, was she secretly trying to build some sort of case against the hospital to do with her long working hours or suchlike? Or she just likes to keep mementos of daily life. Well I guess you've all discussed it in depth but thank you for the information.

In my totally uneducated opinion, no, I don't think so.

I think she has some obsessional compulsive issue which leads her to hoard this stuff. The way the evidence has been presented doesn't seem to suggest that the number of hand-over sheets is in any way relates to the crimes she's accused of. It just seems like coincidence to me - even if she is guilty.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Yes, indeed!

A significant problem for sure. I'm not sure that I see that all these collected hand-over sheets point towards her having committed these crimes, though. Being a bit strange, yes, but I don't see how any of this translates into evidence of murder and attempted murder

It’s the fact that the handover notes relate to those years specifically that I’m mulling over. It suggests but is not prooof of a problem that relates to that year alone. We may hear more on those notes soon though so I’m waiting.

looking at it from the POV of someone who expects the unexpected imo ofc I can see someone whose life really does revol around their job doing it innocuously. The low value and disposable nature of the notes might mean To someone like that that it actually doesn’t do any harm and is a particularly good record of exactly what one has Done in their career. Assuming they find the more personable notes with names of high emotional value. They could look back at them and see each name and it could rock their world. Akin to the way we attach such high value to the names on war memorials. Each name tells a story doesn’t it? .

eta. The story f those names is what needs telling though.

 

[Dotta]

It’s the fact that the handover notes relate to those years specifically that I’m mulling over. It suggests but is not prooof of a problem that relates to that year alone. We may hear more on those notes soon though so I’m waiting.

looking at it from the POV of someone who expects the unexpected imo ofc I can see someone whose life really does revol around their job doing it innocuously. The low value and disposable nature of the notes might mean To someone like that that it actually doesn’t do any harm and is a particularly good record of exactly what one has Done in their career. Assuming they find the more personable notes with names of high emotional value. They could look back at them and see each name and it could rock their world. Akin to the way we attach such high value to the names on war memorials. Each name tells a story doesn’t it? .

eta. The story f those names is what needs telling though.

Sorry to shatter your idealism but many SKs kept meticulous diaries with names of their victims.
Does BTK ring a bell?

JMO

 

[katydid23]

It has been posted. A lot!

Have to say it's a bit of an incongruous source, as is the idea that the CPS has chosen People Mag as its news deliverer. That's not to say it's just PM chancing its click-bait arm but I'd feel a bit more confident if this news were a little more widespread and not just coming from a US publication more noted for its fawning celeb content than its serious crime reporting.

I hope it's true. I guess we'll see next week.

I don't think People would have actually quoted CPS if it was just clickbait. They could just say 'sources' say she will take the stand.

People is not known for outright lying. They are pretty mainstream and have solid sources compared to many celebrity rags.

 

[katydid23]

Does anyone have a link to her actual words?

Reason I ask; shredders are easy to break, especially cheap ones. They can overheat, especially if you don't lubricate the blades - it's amazing how simple paper can dull blades and hugely increase friction.

Also, most, probably all, have what's referred to as a "duty cycle"; this is a pre-determined length of time, set by the manufacturer, that it can continuously run before it shuts itself off for mabe 30 minutes to make sure that it doesn't overheat and ruin itself or cause a fire. That duty cycle is usually quite short. If you continuously feed paper into it for say, three minutes it will shut off for 20 or 30 minutes. If you haven't read the instructions you might just think that it's broken.

Her shredder was found with shredded bank statements in it. I'd be interested to know whether the shredder was actually working or not. If it was found with paper actually in the shredder blades it suggests that it hit its duty cycle limit at some point and she may have assumed it had just broken.

Bit of a stretch but it might explain her answer as to why she didn't have a (working) shredder.

All MOO.

So if her shredder is broken she cannot dispose of anything?

 

[Sweeper2000]

Sorry to shatter your idealism but many SKs kept meticulous diaries with names of their victims.
Does BTK ring a bell?

JMO

It’s not that Dotta it’s the fact that there are so many that doesn’t necessarily point to guilt.

ps. My idealism was shattered when you said I couldn’t report your posts.

So if her shredder is broken she cannot dispose of anything?

I’m not sure it’s the shredder that’s broken.

ps don’t mention the shredder.

 

[ColourPurple]

In my totally uneducated opinion, no, I don't think so.

I think she has some obsessional compulsive issue which leads her to hoard this stuff. The way the evidence has been presented doesn't seem to suggest that the number of hand-over sheets is in any way related to the crimes she's accused of. It just seems like coincidence to me - even if she is guilty.

BIB You really don't think the 250+handover sheets containing details of babies on the neonatal unit, that relate to the one year period that the unexplained deaths and collapses occurred , might be linked to the alleged crimes?

The handover sheets were given out at the start of each shift and contained info on the babies on the ward that day. LL then wrote her notes and observations about her designated babies on the back of the sheets throughout the day. Any relevant info from those notes was then copied to the babies computer records. At the end of her shift the note should have been disposed of in the hospital waste becuase it contained confidential information. Instead from June 2015 LL decided to take 250+ of those notes home. There's no evidence of any handover notes from before that date being found, suggesting either she did take them, but disposed of them (but for some reason wasn't able to do the same for the notes dated from June 2015 onwards) or that for some reason she only started to save them from June 2015.

She moved from hospital residence to her own home during that time, which means she chose to take the handover notes with her. By taking them home she had a record of all the babies on the ward during her shifts and whatever notes had been added about them at changeover. She also had whatever handwritten notes she had added to the back of the sheets. If guilty, and if she was planning which child to attack next and wanted to know what if any existing weaknesses or medical conditions they had, that could be taken advantage of, then the handover notes would be extremely helpful.

Then, if guilty, if she did go on to attack a baby, she would also have the handover notes from the day of the attack which would include her handwritten notes on the back giving a record of any observations she had made before and after the alleged attack. Of course some notes might be written elsewhere, like the resus notes for Baby M, which were written on a paper towel and included details of how many shots of adrenaline were given during resus. The paper towel was found at her home too.

So was it all just a coincidence that LL had 250+ handover notes from 2015-2016 in her home, or, if guilty was it a way of recording details of babies on the ward, using the details to chose potential victims, and then keeping records of the alleged attacks, either as a reminder of the attack, to read back and relive the attacks, or to learn from them in order to adapt and improve her MO for the next attack?

The jury will decide.

All JMO, if guilty.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

BIB You really don't think the 250+handover sheets containing details of babies on the neonatal unit, that relate to the one year period that the unexplained deaths and collapses occurred , might be linked to the alleged crimes?

The handover sheets were given out at the start of each shift and contained info on the babies on the ward that day. LL then wrote her notes and observations about her designated babies on the back of the sheets throughout the day. Any relevant info from those notes was then copied to the babies computer records. At the end of her shift the note should have been disposed of in the hospital waste becuase it contained confidential information. Instead from June 2015 LL decided to take 250+ of those notes home. There's no evidence of any handover notes from before that date being found, suggesting either she did take them, but disposed of them (but for some reason wasn't able to do the same for the notes dated from June 2015 onwards) or that for some reason she only started to save them from June 2015.

She moved from hospital residence to her own home during that time, which means she chose to take the handover notes with her. By taking them home she had a record of all the babies on the ward during her shifts and whatever notes had been added about them at changeover. She also had whatever handwritten notes she had added to the back of the sheets. If guilty, and if she was planning which child to attack next and wanted to know what if any existing weaknesses or medical conditions they had, that could be taken advantage of, then the handover notes would be extremely helpful.

Then, if guilty, if she did go on to attack a baby, she would also have the handover notes from the day of the attack which would include her handwritten notes on the back giving a record of any observations she had made before and after the alleged attack. Of course some notes might be written elsewhere, like the resus notes for Baby M, which were written on a paper towel and included details of how many shots of adrenaline were given during resus. The paper towel was found at her home too.

So was it all just a coincidence that LL had 250+ handover notes from 2015-2016 in her home, or, if guilty was it a way of recording details of babies on the ward, using the details to chose potential victims, and then keeping records of the alleged attacks, either as a reminder of the attack, to read back and relive the attacks, or to learn from them in order to adapt and improve her MO for the next attack?

The jury will decide.

All JMO, if guilty.

So, if guilty, she has possibly been extremely meticulous, calculated, and methodical in making plans.

That would be quite terrifying to think as it represents the concept of 'rogue medic' infiltrating the hospitals most vulnerable patients care system and harming / killing them. Almost like a hacker or an undercover agent being on the inside deliberately to thwart and destroy. JMO

 

[Parker Knoll]

BIB You really don't think the 250+handover sheets containing details of babies on the neonatal unit, that relate to the one year period that the unexplained deaths and collapses occurred , might be linked to the alleged crimes?

The handover sheets were given out at the start of each shift and contained info on the babies on the ward that day. LL then wrote her notes and observations about her designated babies on the back of the sheets throughout the day. Any relevant info from those notes was then copied to the babies computer records. At the end of her shift the note should have been disposed of in the hospital waste becuase it contained confidential information. Instead from June 2015 LL decided to take 250+ of those notes home. There's no evidence of any handover notes from before that date being found, suggesting either she did take them, but disposed of them (but for some reason wasn't able to do the same for the notes dated from June 2015 onwards) or that for some reason she only started to save them from June 2015.

She moved from hospital residence to her own home during that time, which means she chose to take the handover notes with her. By taking them home she had a record of all the babies on the ward during her shifts and whatever notes had been added about them at changeover. She also had whatever handwritten notes she had added to the back of the sheets. If guilty, and if she was planning which child to attack next and wanted to know what if any existing weaknesses or medical conditions they had, that could be taken advantage of, then the handover notes would be extremely helpful.

Then, if guilty, if she did go on to attack a baby, she would also have the handover notes from the day of the attack which would include her handwritten notes on the back giving a record of any observations she had made before and after the alleged attack. Of course some notes might be written elsewhere, like the resus notes for Baby M, which were written on a paper towel and included details of how many shots of adrenaline were given during resus. The paper towel was found at her home too.

So was it all just a coincidence that LL had 250+ handover notes from 2015-2016 in her home, or, if guilty was it a way of recording details of babies on the ward, using the details to chose potential victims, and then keeping records of the alleged attacks, either as a reminder of the attack, to read back and relive the attacks, or to learn from them in order to adapt and improve her MO for the next attack?

The jury will decide.

All JMO, if guilty.

AMEN !

 

[Sweeper2000]

So, if guilty, she has possibly been extremely meticulous, calculated, and methodical in making plans.

That would be quite terrifying to think as it represents the concept of 'rogue medic' infiltrating the hospitals most vulnerable patients care system and harming / killing them. Almost like a hacker or an undercover agent being on the inside deliberately to thwart and destroy. JMO

I think she would have had to have been those things yes but not meticulous. what she was as well if guilty was extremely short sighted, extremely careless and over the world record bold. If she’s guilty she was extremely impulsive and lacking awareness.

 

[Parker Knoll]

She’s a mass of contradictions agreed.

 

[Sweeper2000]

She’s a mass of contradictions agreed.

Only if guilty. Imo