UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #19

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I'm assuming the confidential waste where the hand over sheets should have been posted is one of those whereby they are collected and incinerated off site? Could it be....and these bins I know from previous working environment if someone is suspected of something security management can actually access them via a key....could it be that she didn't want to take the risk of them being retrieved? I'm not saying she is guilty by the way, but just food for thought.
I had a vague idea that the reason for taking all this stuff home could have been so that she could somehow alter the records, or keep them to prove her innocence should she ever be accused of murder, etc. Not sure how that would work though.

I could see why, if guilty, she may not want the handover docs on the hospital grounds because as mentioned, they retain them for a period, then they are sealed and taken away.

Before last week I was thinking she could have somehow recovered them to support her case after being put on admin but she did not suggest that in interview, she said it was more a case of collecting them as she went and not being able to dispose of them.

So then, if she collected them as she went along because she thought she might need to use them in her defence, was this happening alongside the death toll increasing? If so, this would mean that LL was worried she'd get accused of murder even as early as child A, way before transfer to admin or anything else...
 
Well the prosecution has concluded, so she has heard the evidence against her and that has been tested to a degree in court. Might it be possible that there is a change of plea on Tuesday following a weekend’s reflection and conference with counsel?
I'm not sure what they have to gain by doing that. There wouldn't be much, if any reduction for a guilty plea at this late stage and given the charges I don't think there is any hope of less than a whole life sentence. They would have known the prosecution were planning to present all this evidence
 
I had a vague idea that the reason for taking all this stuff home could have been so that she could somehow alter the records, or keep them to prove her innocence should she ever be accused of murder, etc. Not sure how that would work though.
She couldn't alter the computerised records without it leaving a trail (if at all) and she obviously couldn't take those computerised records home BUT what she could do, while she was still working on the ward was to write down info from the file onto her handover sheet and take THAT home with her. So the handover sheet would then contain info from the computerised file.

I think that is what the prosection is suggesting she did here:

A handover sheet for June 28, 2016 is shown which, the court hears, is outside the indictment period so no names of babies are shown to the court on this document.

The court hears there is handwriting on the rear of this note, which mentions Child O, and again the document features medical observations and notes.

Baby O died on 23rd June, so the notes relating to him on the back of the 28th June handover sheet can't have been taken whilst doing observations of him on that shift, suggesting the handwritten notes may have been copied from somewhere else on that shift, or were possibly in relation to something discussed about him on that shift. Hard to know without seeing what the notes said. If they were observations of him, like temperature etc then they must have been copied from other historical records.

Of course you could argue that she could have written the notes on the handover sheet at any point once she had it at home, but her routine appears to have been to write notes and observations on the back of the handover sheet during the shift. And if the info did contain observations and notes for Baby O then it would have had to have come from somewhere with records of those. The logical explantion IMO is that she wrote the notes on the back of the 28th June handover sheet, during that shift.



All JMO
 
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She can't alter the computerised records without it leaving a trail, and she obviously couldn't take those computerised records home BUT what she could do, while she was still working on the ward was to write down info from the file onto her handover sheet and take THAT home with her. So the handover sheet would then contain info from the computerised file.

I think that is what the prosection is suggesting she did here:

A handover sheet for June 28, 2016 is shown which, the court hears, is outside the indictment period so no names of babies are shown to the court on this document.

The court hears there is handwriting on the rear of this note, which mentions Child O, and again the document features medical observations and notes.

Baby O died on 23rd June, so the notes relating to him on the back of the 28th June handover sheet can't have been taken whilst doing observations of him on that shift, suggesting the handwritten notes may have been copied from somewhere else on that shift, or were possibly in relation to something discussed about him on that shift. Hard to know without seeing what the notes said. If they were observations of him, like temperature etc then they must have been copied from other historical records.

Yes,

I'm also assuming - when ever an NHS nurse/doctor who ever logs into a computer system a trail remains on their log in account of who and which patients records they have viewed, name, timestamp, date, in 2015 I would have thought this would be in place even much earlier, as this is the main reason why people shouldn't share there account login information etc.
 
She couldn't alter the computerised records without it leaving a trail (if at all) and she obviously couldn't take those computerised records home BUT what she could do, while she was still working on the ward was to write down info from the file onto her handover sheet and take THAT home with her. So the handover sheet would then contain info from the computerised file.

I think that is what the prosection is suggesting she did here:

A handover sheet for June 28, 2016 is shown which, the court hears, is outside the indictment period so no names of babies are shown to the court on this document.

The court hears there is handwriting on the rear of this note, which mentions Child O, and again the document features medical observations and notes.

Baby O died on 23rd June, so the notes relating to him on the back of the 28th June handover sheet can't have been taken whilst doing observations of him on that shift, suggesting the handwritten notes may have been copied from somewhere else on that shift, or were possibly in relation to something discussed about him on that shift. Hard to know without seeing what the notes said. If they were observations of him, like temperature etc then they must have been copied from other historical records.

Of course you could argue that she could have written the notes on the handover sheet at any point once she had it at home, but her routine appears to have been to write notes and observations on the back of the handover sheet during the shift. And if the info did contain observations and notes for Baby O then it would have had to have come from somewhere with records of those. The logical explantion IMO is that she wrote the notes on the back of the 28th June handover sheet, during that shift.



All JMO
I was just thinking this too. Perhaps left old handover sheet on scrubs pocket and wrote down obs of baby O on that.
 
Not personal to LL as I don't know her and slightly off topic - but - over the years, I've noticed certain types of personality (disordered) people that are mostly described as 'cluster B' (if one chooses to believe in these categories is a different issue again) have a high propensity to a cloying sentimentality that makes little sense when combined with low empathy and high entitlement.

RSBM

That's a very interesting take. The 'cloying sentimentality' stands out for me. LL's obvious love of the colour pink (which we kind of associate with little girls), the rather childish 'doggy' diary for someone in their mid/late 20s, the 'leave sparkles wherever you go' art ('art'!), her claiming she kept a copy of the card because she wanted a reminder of the 'kind words she shared'. Not that those things on their own merit any useful attention, more that collectively, they speak to a private and rather mawkish immaturity that's quite at odds with the public very unsentimental, very practical, very efficient nurse that LL was.

Just thinking aloud... and possibly rambling...
 
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RSBM

That's a very interesting take. The 'cloying sentimentality' stands out for me. LL's obvious love of the colour pink (which we kind of associate with little girls), the rather childish 'doggy' diary for someone in their mid/late 20s, the 'leave sparkles wherever you go' art ('art'!), her claiming she kept a copy of the card because she wanted a reminder of the 'kind words she shared'. Not that those things on their own merit any useful attention, more that collectively, they speak to a private and rather mawkish immaturity that's quite at odds with the public very unsentimental, very practical, very efficient nurse that LL was.

Just thinking aloud...

Pink is for everyone.
 
I'm not sure what they have to gain by doing that. There wouldn't be much, if any reduction for a guilty plea at this late stage and given the charges I don't think there is any hope of less than a whole life sentence. They would have known the prosecution were planning to present all this evidence
 
I agree with you. In such a case barristers would say ‘ No Credit for a Plea’ and yes a whole life tariff , if guilty, looks likely. However, if she considered that conviction was inevitable it could be a last throw of the dice.

She is not charged with manslaughter as an alternative is she?
 
I agree with you. In such a case barristers would say ‘ No Credit for a Plea’ and yes a whole life tariff , if guilty, looks likely. However, if she considered that conviction was inevitable it could be a last throw of the dice.

She is not charged with manslaughter as an alternative is she?
If they were not discussing previously mentioned matters (taking the stand or plea),
so maybe they were dealing with some MH issues?
I really think it is a problem here.

But then, what do I know about UK trials?
Virtually nothing :)

JMO
 
She couldn't alter the computerised records without it leaving a trail (if at all) and she obviously couldn't take those computerised records home BUT what she could do, while she was still working on the ward was to write down info from the file onto her handover sheet and take THAT home with her. So the handover sheet would then contain info from the computerised file.

I think that is what the prosection is suggesting she did here:

A handover sheet for June 28, 2016 is shown which, the court hears, is outside the indictment period so no names of babies are shown to the court on this document.

The court hears there is handwriting on the rear of this note, which mentions Child O, and again the document features medical observations and notes.

Baby O died on 23rd June, so the notes relating to him on the back of the 28th June handover sheet can't have been taken whilst doing observations of him on that shift, suggesting the handwritten notes may have been copied from somewhere else on that shift, or were possibly in relation to something discussed about him on that shift. Hard to know without seeing what the notes said. If they were observations of him, like temperature etc then they must have been copied from other historical records.

Of course you could argue that she could have written the notes on the handover sheet at any point once she had it at home, but her routine appears to have been to write notes and observations on the back of the handover sheet during the shift. And if the info did contain observations and notes for Baby O then it would have had to have come from somewhere with records of those. The logical explantion IMO is that she wrote the notes on the back of the 28th June handover sheet, during that shift.



All JMO
Wow! That is interesting. Having 250+ handover notes in your house was never going to be easy to explain but how the hell is LL going to get out of that!? I hope the prosecution are stronger in pointing out the significance of this because it's not coming across in the reporting. Imo
 
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