UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #2

[Marantz4250b]

There was a cluster of three deaths over a 14 day period in June 2015. Two of the triplets died within a day of each other in June 2016.

The dates/victim's of the attempted murders are not given. These may support a clustering pattern of the alleged offences, or not.

LL's precise shift, patient allocation, duties, absence of supervision/peers present may have all contributed to a perception that the incidents occurred within a short period after LL had been in an opportune position to harm the child, as opposed to other times when then there was a greater clinical presence.

The reasonable expectation is that ALL staff were subject to the same scrutiny of their activities and were fully exonerated.

They are on the Cheshire Live report. There are two attempted murder charges on the same day - 9th April 2016.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

If you read the list of charges, some of them span several days, the November 2015 charge spans three weeks! I cannot easily see how one unlawful act could continue for that length of time unless they are alleging that she "set on motion", for want of a better phrase, some event or chain of events which continued for that period of time.

Edit: of course, thinking about it, it could mean that they don't know when she did it but are saying whatever it was happened between those dates. It seems rather tenuous though if they can't nail it down more accurately than a three week window, though.

Looking at the dates for the murders given in the Cheshire Live report they are either a single date in 5 cases and span 4 days in 3 instances.

Where the dates are spread over the 4 day period then is implies that an action/omission tool place sometime within that period resulting in death on the final date. In a clinical setting there should be no doubt as to the date of death.

What I find interesting is that the multiple data events all span 4 days, which may fit with a long shift working pattern between 3-4 rest days.

I wonder if the deaths with a single date occurred on the first day on LL's working pattern. Would this be relevant in a possible Crown challenge of a desire to 'play God' over a number of days, whilst responsible for the patient, albeit with absence between the end of one shift and the start of the next?

I can't see a murder charge in November 2015 spanning several weeks?

The dates given for the murder charges are as follows:

1. 8th June 2015
2. 12th - 15th June 2015
3. 22nd June 2015
4. 2nd - 5th August 2015
5. 21st - 24th October 2015
6. 20th February 2016
7. 23rd June 2016
8. 24th June 2016

 

[Whitehall 1212]

They are on the Cheshire Live report. There are two attempted murder charges on the same day - 9th April 2016.

I've found all the dates for both the alleged murders and attempted murders.

Many of the attempted murders also span a period of 4 days....further highlighting the possibility of a 4 days on long shift rota between rest days.

The dates established for the attempted murders may span a period where the victim was resuscitated successfully, possibly a number of times, between the dates given and for which there was no obvious cause for respiratory/cardiac arrest (usually respiratory in young people....cardiac in later years).

What is clearly apparent is two of the triplets dying on 23rd and 24th June 2016 and then the final charge to date of attempted murder occurs on 25th June 2016.

It may be that the third triplet was the alleged victim in this case and was successfully resuscitated at a time when two siblings had died in the previous two days and there was great concern amongst the staff.

It may be that soon after this LL was assigned to non-clinical admin duties, possibly initially with concern for her emotional well being, if she had been directly involved in the high dependency care of all three.

 

[gill1109]

The dates don’t prove anything. The cases have been selected because Lucy Letby could be associated with them. What we don’t see are events which could not be associated with Lucy. Please read our report carefully. RSS publishes report on dealing with uncertainty in medical “murder” cases

 

[ZaZara]

The dates don’t prove anything. The cases have been selected because Lucy Letby could be associated with them. What we don’t see are events which could not be associated with Lucy. Please read our report carefully. RSS publishes report on dealing with uncertainty in medical “murder” cases

The dates "prove" that they were chosen because LL could be associated with them.

It should be possible to make another list, one of babies that survived on LL's watch, thanks to her care and interventions.

 

[gill1109]

It could be if the deaths occurred in clusters.

The 8 investigated deaths in 2016 were from January to July, not spread over the whole calendar year.

If there was a cluster of cases just before LL went away in patients that she'd had direct contact with not long before their demise, which suddenly stopped when LL was absent, then rightly or wrongly this could give rise to a degree of suspicion that her presence was in some way instrumental.

How do you define “a cluster of cases”? Human beings see “clusters of events” all the time. It’s what our brains do! This ability has led to present day science but also to present day non-science. Do you believe in astrology? When you look up at the night sky, do you see a bull, fishes, a virgin, a crab?

 

[JuicyLucy]

I have consistently had NHS staff suspended immediately, once I am investigating them for less serious criminal offences. Of course they can appeal the decision but none ever have.

I expect they were glad of the rest.

 

[Blondiexoxo]

I’m very curious to hear more about LL as a person, from people who actually knew her especially around the time the murders are alleged to have been committed. I wouldn’t be surprised to hear that there was a significant event in her life that happened around 2015, a break up or some bad news etc.. one thing I did wonder when this first come out is if LL had discovered she was unable to have children of her own, and maybe felt some resentment towards the parents of the babies she cared for. I have a feeling the details are going to shock us all when we hear them. Especially since the only things we’ve heard about LL is that she was such a kind person, I believe that those who know her and worked with her are going to be in shock when all of the evidence is revealed.

This is the one trial I’ve been waiting for since her arrest. My youngest was in special care after she was born, I know how traumatising it is to have to leave hospital after giving birth and leave your baby behind. I cried every night until we were finally able to bring her home. When your baby is in neonatal you literally put your world in the nurses hands. They are caring for the thing most precious to you. It’s bad enough to have to be seperated from your child after birth, but to think that a nurse in such a position of trust, who is supposed to care for and help your baby get better could be the one to end their life is one of the worst crimes I can think of. Little defenceless innocent babies, killed by someone who was supposed to be looking after them and who the parents trusted it’s just beyond belief. I want to hear how this all transpired, but at the same time I know the facts of the case will be heartbreaking. All MOO

 

[Whitehall 1212]

The dates don’t prove anything. The cases have been selected because Lucy Letby could be associated with them. What we don’t see are events which could not be associated with Lucy. Please read our report carefully. RSS publishes report on dealing with uncertainty in medical “murder” cases

Dates/times/locations have relevance when taken in context with other evidence to either support or point away from a defendants involvement.

The only dates currently in our domain are those on the charge sheet which relate to the alleged actions/omissions relevant to the substantive offences.

Other deaths/critical incidents investigated when LL was not present or not charged will need to have been made available to the defence under the rules of disclosure. The defence may use these to challenge the Crowns case.....whatever that transpires to be.

The evidence presented is ultimately what the jury have to scrutinise. Hopefully, defence counsel will have the experts lined up to soundly challenge the basis of any statistical evidence presented by the Crown, to ensure that LL receives the fair trial that is her right.

 

[JosieJo]

The dates "prove" that they were chosen because LL could be associated with them.

It should be possible to make another list, one of babies that survived on LL's watch, thanks to her care and interventions.

I'm not sure how anything we know "proves" or disproves anything at the minute.

Comparing the number of babies that survived when LL was on duty would be about as useful as counting how many young women managed to walk past Peter Sutcliffe without getting killed.

I hope for everyone concerned there is the evidence to allow the Jury to make a sound decision.

I also hope the the Prosecution case starts soon and is in the main published as I'm really starting to "struggle" with this thread and I can't say I've felt that way before.

 

[JuicyLucy]

As to what evidence they have against her or, more specifically, what they are going to allege as to how she did it, I'm leaning more towards it being some sort of tampering with medication or equipment. If you read the list of charges, some of them span several days, the November 2015 charge spans three weeks! I cannot easily see how one unlawful act could continue for that length of time unless they are alleging that she "set on motion", for want of a better phrase, some event or chain of events which continued for that period of time.

rsbm

I tend to agree, but it does make you wonder what the police were looking for when they dug up her garden. Do we know if they found or removed any evidence as a result of that search?

 

[JosieJo]

I’m very curious to hear more about LL as a person, from people who actually knew her especially around the time the murders are alleged to have been committed. I wouldn’t be surprised to hear that there was a significant event in her life that happened around 2015, a break up or some bad news etc.. one thing I did wonder when this first come out is if LL had discovered she was unable to have children of her own, and maybe felt some resentment towards the parents of the babies she cared for. I have a feeling the details are going to shock us all when we hear them. Especially since the only things we’ve heard about LL is that she was such a kind person, I believe that those who know her and worked with her are going to be in shock when all of the evidence is revealed.

This is the one trial I’ve been waiting for since her arrest. My youngest was in special care after she was born, I know how traumatising it is to have to leave hospital after giving birth and leave your baby behind. I cried every night until we were finally able to bring her home. When your baby is in neonatal you literally put your world in the nurses hands. They are caring for the thing most precious to you. It’s bad enough to have to be seperated from your child after birth, but to think that a nurse in such a position of trust, who is supposed to care for and help your baby get better could be the one to end their life is one of the worst crimes I can think of. Little defenceless innocent babies, killed by someone who was supposed to be looking after them and who the parents trusted it’s just beyond belief. I want to hear how this all transpired, but at the same time I know the facts of the case will be heartbreaking. All MOO

Yes I agree her mindset will be interesting

 

[gill1109]

I'm not sure how anything we know "proves" or disproves anything at the minute.

Comparing the number of babies that survived when LL was on duty would be about as useful as counting how many young women managed to walk past Peter Sutcliffe without getting killed.

I hope for everyone concerned there is the evidence to allow the Jury to make a sound decision.

I also hope the the Prosecution case starts soon and is in the main published as I'm really starting to "struggle" with this thread and I can't say I've felt that way before.

What about the babies who did not survive when LL was *not* on duty? That is what interests me. Present the case notes of those who died without her involvement, and of those who died with her involvement, to independent medical specialists who are blinded to the identity of attending nurses and doctors, and compare their evaluations of the “normality” of the events. Experience shows that a typical pathologist’s evaluation of whether a death is natural or unnatural is strongly influenced by the pathologist’s knowledge of whether or not they are being consulted in connection with a criminal prosecution, and after that, it is strongly influenced by aspects of the case as a whole. For instance whether or not a baby is judged by a pathologist to have died of injuries inflicted by a parent depends on whether the pathologist knows the ethnicity of the child. Pathologists judged that baby deaths occurring under Lucia de Berk’s care were unnatural deaths because they had understood that there were so many deaths when Lucia was present! Otherwise they would not have thought the death was an unnatural death. This was written in their written opinions. But not noticed during court proceedings by anyone, in particular, not by the defence lawyers.

Anyway: right now, we know nothing. Let’s hope the trial gets underway soon, and we start to learn about real medical evidence, if there is any. Typically in these cases, there is more or less hard evidence in just one or two cases. The rest are the result of a fishing expedition intended to find out “who else has she possibly killed, if she is indeed a serial killer”; often carried out my local hospital authorities who are already convinced they have a serial killer on their hands.

Health care serial killers do exist. They are, thankfully, extremely rare.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

How do you define “a cluster of cases”? Human beings see “clusters of events” all the time. It’s what our brains do! This ability has led to present day science but also to present day non-science. Do you believe in astrology? When you look up at the night sky, do you see a bull, fishes, a virgin, a crab?

Well first there is the semantics of what one would define as a cluster in any given situation. Opinions may vary.

If a series of unusual/unexplained events occur in 'close succession' then they may have a common connection giving rise to their proximity. Of course further investigation would be needed in an effort to prove of disprove the hypothesis of an interrelationship.

If I wait an hour for a number 11 bus and three come along in 5 mins, it's not beyond the realms of possibility that there is common denominator.

It is very human to want order, have routine and find explanation. Not many gravitate voluntarily towards apparent chaos (Tory M.P.'s notwithstanding), although I tend to function best when thrown in the deep end, with headless chickens all around!

 

[Whitehall 1212]

I’m very curious to hear more about LL as a person, from people who actually knew her especially around the time the murders are alleged to have been committed. I wouldn’t be surprised to hear that there was a significant event in her life that happened around 2015, a break up or some bad news etc.. one thing I did wonder when this first come out is if LL had discovered she was unable to have children of her own, and maybe felt some resentment towards the parents of the babies she cared for. I have a feeling the details are going to shock us all when we hear them. Especially since the only things we’ve heard about LL is that she was such a kind person, I believe that those who know her and worked with her are going to be in shock when all of the evidence is revealed.

This is the one trial I’ve been waiting for since her arrest. My youngest was in special care after she was born, I know how traumatising it is to have to leave hospital after giving birth and leave your baby behind. I cried every night until we were finally able to bring her home. When your baby is in neonatal you literally put your world in the nurses hands. They are caring for the thing most precious to you. It’s bad enough to have to be seperated from your child after birth, but to think that a nurse in such a position of trust, who is supposed to care for and help your baby get better could be the one to end their life is one of the worst crimes I can think of. Little defenceless innocent babies, killed by someone who was supposed to be looking after them and who the parents trusted it’s just beyond belief. I want to hear how this all transpired, but at the same time I know the facts of the case will be heartbreaking. All MOO

In terms if the possible reasons, relationship break up, infertility etc these are all considerations that I have had.

However, many people, and no doubt many nurses/doctors, have such life traumas, but they don't take it out on their patients. If anything the act of caring for someone galvanises the human spirit, provides hope for the future and love not hate.

It's more than likely that there are events in LL's life that have caused her upset or trauma.....we've all have them. These may come out at her trial. There is a huge leap from not managing trauma to committing horrific deeds. It takes a certain kind of psychology to deviate in such a way.

I don't think there will be any smoking gun. I think it is a set of deeply upsetting circumstances for which there may or may not have been had been any criminal intent, but which the Crown believes there was.

The essential point to start from is that LL is innocent unless she is proven guilty in a court of law.

The jury must endeavour to reach a unanimous verdict (all 12) only on the evidence presented in court.

The burden of proof for guilt is beyond reasonable doubt, which is certainty.....a high bar to cross.

There are no winners in this case, whatever the truth is. It is a case of immense tragedy and sorrow.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

rsbm

I tend to agree, but it does make you wonder what the police were looking for when they dug up her garden. Do we know if they found or removed any evidence as a result of that search?

Did they dig up her garden? If they did then they must have been looking for something specific which they believed could be found at the point of their focus.

Items were apparently taken from the house. There are MSM photos (Daily Mail all over it) that confirm it....so it must be true....not just the officers empty lunchbox!

 

[JuicyLucy]

Did they dig up her garden? If they did then they must have been looking for something specific which they believed could be found at the point of their focus.

Items were apparently taken from the house. There are MSM photos (Daily Mail all over it) that confirm it....so it must be true....not just the officers empty lunchbox!

I dislike the DM as a source, but in the interests of a swift reply:

Police dig up back garden and search gutters at home of neonatal nurse

That's her "£180,000 home" btw.

 

[Jules2021]

Regarding her holiday-I had read one sickly baby made a miraculous recovery whilst she was away...I can't remember other details as it's a while since I read it. So I'm not sure if it was to do with death rates as much as recovery rates improving in at least one baby whilst she was away.

I really hope we get some news next week-the biggest case of my lifetime and it seems like it's gonna be radio silence forever. I just can't fathom the fall out from this case. If she turns out to be innocent is it going to affect rates of people applying for this type of job? Who would ever want to be put in the position LL or Rebecca Leighton were put in? And if she is guilty, the absolute fall out of having a serial killing nurse in operation for a YEAR LONG killing spree in 21st century Britain. Will we ever find out for sure of her guilt? Or a motive? Will she get any sort of apology and compensation if she's found innocent? Was it another staff member? I can't think of any scenario in this case that would make sense, and I know we have such little info but still, it's stumped us all right?

 

[Whitehall 1212]

I dislike the DM as a source, but in the interests of a swift reply:

Police dig up back garden and search gutters at home of neonatal nurse

That's her "£180,000 home" btw.

Thanks @JuicyLucy,

I've seen it before but never paid much attention to the the content.

What I find unusual is that all the officers searching are in uniform and there doesn't appear to be a detective or forensic officer in sight.

Bear in mind that it took a whole year from when the police were notified before they arrested LL.

This may have been because the police delayed the arrest, because even though they had enough 'reasonable suspicion' to arrest earlier they wanted to get most of their ducks in a row before interviewing. Or they took a year to find enough suspicion to arrest LL.....it doesn't need much!

If they had reasonable suspicion of murder/attempted murder earlier they can't have been too concerned about losing evidence from both houses, a car and garden, because with arrest comes various powers and potential powers of search. It makes me think that no drugs, syringes, documents etc were found to be missing from the hospital.

Unless the uniformed officers were a specialist police search team (PolSA) who are trained in finding obscure objects in obscure places then it looks like a gaggle of uniformed officers sent to do the best on behalf of the CID.

In all the photos there is not one that shows an officer carrying an evidence bag, which is what any items of interest will be placed in, documented fully and sealed in situ.

Searches in serious cases would usually have a photographer, often doubling as scenes of crime, to photograph/video the item in situ before removing it into the evidence bag.

It all looks like a bit of an afterthought.....as though they didn't really expect to find anything of evidential value!

 

[Marantz4250b]

I’m very curious to hear more about LL as a person, from people who actually knew her especially around the time the murders are alleged to have been committed. I wouldn’t be surprised to hear that there was a significant event in her life that happened around 2015, a break up or some bad news etc.. one thing I did wonder when this first come out is if LL had discovered she was unable to have children of her own, and maybe felt some resentment towards the parents of the babies she cared for. I have a feeling the details are going to shock us all when we hear them. Especially since the only things we’ve heard about LL is that she was such a kind person, I believe that those who know her and worked with her are going to be in shock when all of the evidence is revealed.

I'm utterly fascinated as to what she's like, to be totally honest. I've just seen that one of the FB groups has a guy on it who appears to know her very well - I rarely look at FB anymore and have taken the app off my phone as it's becoming a bit of a cesspit in general, quite honestly. His posts tend to align with everything else that's been said about her - essentially, that she's totally lovely, very devoted to her job and wouldn't hurt a fly.

The theory that something happened in her life to send her over the edge and start murdering patients has been mentioned on here, and elsewhere, many times and I don't buy it, quite frankly. People who are otherwise "normal" simply do not act like this. Everyone goes through breakups, bereavements and medical dramas and they don't end up murdering children because of them. If these things were a trigger for serial murder then the human race would have become extinct thousands of years ago. It might be a plausible theory if LL had had a horrendously abusive childhood and was already mentally unhinged but everything we know about her suggests otherwise. She just seems to be entirely normal. Boringly normal, if you will.