UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #22

[magikarpmagikarp]

Hey, it's rough that you went through this too. I'm sorry to hear it .........The idea that the prosecution is presenting is that letby wanted to be present and speed things up.
The former idea of wanting to be present wouldn't be so sinister if you knew the family and had a relationship with them. Alot of us want to support patients we have come to care about. Empathetic people are often magnets to people and situations that need them. A part of that is humanity but was this humanity gone too far

Thank you, Esther. Yes I agree. If the family wanted someone to be present, that would be appropriate. There's just no evidence that was the case. It really sounds like she was trying to insert herself into a very private situation, in a way that was inappropriate.

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

Whilst, LL was specifically stating that from her lived experiences being exposed to a trigger (e.g., returning to room-1) following a trauma (e.g.,witnessing the loss of a baby) - helped her to cope better and re adapt to that environment again.

This is not an uncommon strategy used to cope with psychological triggers (e.g., phobias, panic disorders or PTSD etc.) - Notwithstanding, I have never read about it being applied in this context.

However, perhaps she was conditioned to consider it the best approach, from her training in Liverpool; she referred to this in a previous statement.

ETA- typos

I agree that if what LL testified about Liverpool is true, then that experience could have led her to think it was the right approach. To me it sounds like hazing and I think one of LL's coworkers alluded to that idea.

Exposure is a common strategy to deal with certain types of anxiety, but it is unprofessional to treat the baby as a therapeutic object for the nurse.

 

[esther43]

Thank you, Esther. Yes I agree. If the family wanted someone to be present, that would be appropriate. There's just no evidence that was the case. It really sounds like she was trying to insert herself into a very private situation, in a way that was inappropriate.

I hear you. Also, I'm sure you'll agree that the baby box scenario on this occasion does need to be taken int context with what happened around the time of child O, where it was reported that LL was all animated and excited. Not just a one off but a theme it seems.

 

[katydid23]

That is not the impression I got from reading the texts in evidence, on the contrary…I noted colleagues would be the ones mentioning other colleagues.

Sure, they all were. But you don't think it odd that she is texting so much while on duty? If she really wanted to express herself about the emotions from the ongoing deaths, why not get some proper help?

Whilst, LL was specifically stating that from her lived experiences being exposed to a trigger (e.g., returning to room-1) following a trauma (e.g.,witnessing the loss of a baby) - helped her to cope better and re adapt to that environment again.

This is not an uncommon strategy used to cope with psychological triggers (e.g., phobias, panic disorders or PTSD etc.) - Notwithstanding, I have never read about it being applied in this context.

However, perhaps she was conditioned to consider it the best approach, from her training in Liverpool; she referred to this in a previous statement.

ETA- typos

She didn't seem to want to heed the advice from more experienced colleagues, who strongly suggested that she take some recovery time.
Jumping back into the battle lines didn't seem to be the best approach because babies were still dropping, left and right around her. Wouldn't she want to figure out why?

What do you think was happening to make such a big spike in unexplained collapses that year?

 

[Dotta]

Thank you, Esther. Yes I agree. If the family wanted someone to be present, that would be appropriate. There's just no evidence that was the case. It really sounds like she was trying to insert herself into a very private situation, in a way that was inappropriate.

My guess is that she (allegedly) has morbid fascination with death.

Among other worrying things.

Her (alleged) seeming latching on others' grief might mean she is incapable of feeling deep emotions but curious of them.

Observing others might have given her the foretaste of something she doesn't feel.

I think she, IF GUILTY, is a psychopath.

But it is only my opinion.

 

[IDK]

I agree that if what LL testified about Liverpool is true, then that experience could have led her to think it was the right approach. To me it sounds like hazing and I think one of LL's coworkers alluded to that idea.

Exposure is a common strategy to deal with certain types of anxiety, but it is unprofessional to treat the baby as a therapeutic object for the nurse.

.

I am not familiar with trial protocol in the UK, so please bear with me. I wonder if either the defense or prosecution might consider calling a representative from the Liverpool hospital to confirm if what LL said is accurate? I think it might be helpful also in establishing her honesty or lack thereof. Just a thought.

 

[esther43]

Sure, they all were. But you don't think it odd that she is texting so much while on duty? If she really wanted to express herself about the emotions from the ongoing deaths, why not get some proper help?

She didn't seem to want to heed the advice from more experienced colleagues, who strongly suggested that she take some recovery time.
Jumping back into the battle lines didn't seem to be the best approach because babies were still dropping, left and right around her. Wouldn't she want to figure out why?

What do you think was happening to make such a big spike in unexplained collapses that year?

Agree, she felt unable to take advise from colleagues. Such a fundamental skill in the NHS. If you're not a team player then it really wouldn't be worth your mental health working in the sector.

My guess is that she (allegedly) has morbid fascination with death.

Among other worrying things.

Her (alleged) seeming latching on others' grief might mean she is incapable of feeling deep emotions but curious of them.

Observing others might have given her the foretaste of something she doesn't feel.

I think she, IF GUILTY, is a psychopath.

But it is only my opinion.

I agree that if what LL testified about Liverpool is true, then that experience could have led her to think it was the right approach. To me it sounds like hazing and I think one of LL's coworkers alluded to that idea.

Exposure is a common strategy to deal with certain types of anxiety, but it is unprofessional to treat the baby as a therapeutic object for the nurse.

That is so true. To be honest what you've articulated there is what I think others on the unit were starting to get a sense of. Perhaps even more so after deployment.

 

[katydid23]

Something else interesting, but wondering, how long was she working at COCH?

Because it seems from her story about the deaths at Women's---those were the only deaths of her babies she had experienced. So if she had been working a few years at COCH, with no deaths of babies she was caring for---wasn't it quite unusual, in her mind, to be losing babies, on back to back nights, so suddenly and so routinely?

It makes me curious about why she was so able to accept it as somewhat normal, as she wrote it off as fate and said all she could do is accept it and move on.

 

[esther43]

Something else interesting, but wondering, how long was she working at COCH?

Because it seems from her story about the deaths at Women's---those were the only deaths of her babies she had experienced. So if she had been working a few years at COCH, with no deaths of babies she was caring for---wasn't it quite unusual, in her mind, to be losing babies, on back to back nights, so suddenly and so routinely?

It makes me curious about why she was so able to accept it as somewhat normal, as she wrote it off as fate and said all she could do is accept it and move on.

She wanted to bring some of the action from LW back to Chester if you ask me.
Who says things like '33/34 weekers, it's a difficult gestation' ??

 

[Dotta]

She wanted to bring some of the action from LW back to Chester if you ask me.

Maybe because only in such "action" she felt truly alive, experiencing some emotions?

JMO

 

[Sweeper2000]

Is it worth finding out what exactly she remembers that is in accordance with what other people say and matches the evidence? It’s almost like there is nothing that matches others or her original version of events. how different is her testimony compared to her police interviews?

I would also like to ask if anyone knows how a jury perceives this part of the evidence generally?

 

[Phoenix Lazarus]

Is it right that there's only going to be two working days of court next week?

EDIT: I've just found in the link below that the case only starts being heard again next Wednesday.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-65602988

 

[JosieJo]

Towards the end of her testimony yesterday where she states hand and footprints are sometimes taken whilst the babies are still alive ...has anyone seen a more detailed version of the conversation? I'm trying to work out what was asked of her then and why ? Thanks

 

[Cluedoneit]

Towards the end of her testimony yesterday where she states hand and footprints are sometimes taken whilst the babies are still alive ...has anyone seen a more detailed version of the conversation? I'm trying to work out what was asked of her then and why ? Thanks

I can’t help with exact conversation as on my iPad, but the reason she gave for being in the room with baby c’s parents whilst they were saying goodbye is that she was filling out a checklist for babies who had already died. Baby C was still alive at this point, so zero reason to be in the room unless the parents asked for her to be there.

 

[JosieJo]

Are the prosecution suggesting LL was "over zealous" with trying to do the memory box because it was coming towards the end of her shift?

 

[WaxLyrical]

Why should the Jury disregard all of her testimony during cross examination (however short it has been so far)?
It doesn't make sense to me.
Nor it seems fair.

JMO

To clarify I was suggesting/speculating the jury might have to disregard any testimony which has not been cross examined. And then not sure what happens re redirection. Just a question about court process more than anything.

Although in reality I’m not sure a jury would be able to ‘forget’ anything they’ve heard, or dismiss whatever influence it had on them.

 

[WaxLyrical]

Are the prosecution suggesting LL was "over zealous" with trying to do the memory box because it was coming towards the end of her shift?

I think so? But if I remember right the baby died around 5:30, and if footprints etc were taken prior to that, it doesn’t feel like it’s too close to end of shift, 7:30am?

It was originally reported that she sent a message to to Minna saying something like she “persuaded” the parents to have the prints done, and they just wanted to go home. I’ll try and dig it out.

Edit: found it, it just says colleague so no idea where I got Minna from.

Letby messaged the colleague: "Parents sat with [Child C] in the family room...persuaded them to have hand and footprints but they just wanted to go home."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, October 27

THE trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[esther43]

Is it worth finding out what exactly she remembers that is in accordance with what other people say and matches the evidence? It’s almost like there is nothing that matches others or her original version of events. how different is her testimony compared to her police interviews?

I would also like to ask if anyone knows how a jury perceives this part of the evidence generally?

No idea how the jury perceive it but I found this interesting document on how to tell if someone is lying when being interviewed. I noticed that LL exhibited a number of these features when being questioned.
1.No response / non responsive
2.Delayed response
3.Repeating the question
4.No denial
5. Overly specific/ overly vague
6.Protest statements

https://www.tdcorg.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/StudyingLiars-03-24-07.pdf

 

[ColourPurple]

@JosieJo @WaxLyrical . Here are LL's texts after Baby C's death (including the one about persuading them to have hand and foot prints done):

Text messages and Whatsapp messages sent to and from Letby's phone the morning after Child C died are shown to the court.

Letby messages a colleague: "Sorry I was just off [last night], was not a great start to shift but sadly it got worse."

The colleague responds: "You weren't off, you just were not happy and there is nothing I could say that was going to make it any better."

Letby: "I was struggling to accept what happened to [Child A], now we have lost [Child C] overnight and it's all a bit much."

The colleague replies: "It will be but it does happen to these babies unfortunately."

"It's a very sad part of our job."

The colleague recalls a baby who had previously died in the neonatal unit, but had "overwhelming sepsis" so "nothing would have saved that baby".

Letby: "[C] is the little 800g baby...went off very suddenly. I know it happens but it's so sudden..."

Messages are relayed detailing how nursing staff on the night were upset by what happened.

Letby's colleague messages: "This is where we have to pull together and look after each other."

Letby: "Think we support each other brilliantly...just such a shock especially after Monday."

Letby is advised to "switch off for a bit".

Letby messaged her mum that morning to say: "We lost a little one overnight. Very unexpected and sad xx"

Letby added, in the message to her mum: "He only weighted 800g...new girl was looking after him, she is devastated."

Letby's colleague, in a message to Letby, said: "Hoping you are going to ok, this is not like you. Sending the biggest hugs."

Letby, in her reply, says: "It's heartbreaking but it's not about me."

Letby's colleague, in her reply, says to use a 'northern phrase': "Chin up chuck we will get through it together."

Letby: "It's not about me or anybody else, it's those poor parents who have to walk away without their baby."

Letby messages another colleague asking when she is next work, before adding: "We lost little [Child C] overnight, everyone's devastated."

The colleague responds: "Damn. Infection? Crap week. How is [Child B]?"

Letby gives an update and says, for Child C, "it happened very quickly."

The colleague responds: "Damn. As quick as [Child A]? Yeah, s*** week."

Letby messaged the colleague: "Parents sat with [Child C] in the family room...persuaded them to have hand and footprints but they just wanted to go home."

The colleague responds: "That is so sad, don't know what to say."

Letby: "There are no words, it's been awful."

The colleague: "It's a really tough week, especially for you."

The conversation ends at 10.12am.

Letby searched for both the parents of Child C on Facebook later that day, at 3.32pm.

A conversation Letby has with a third colleague, later that day, is shown to the court.

Letby: "I don't really want to go in tonight."

The colleague responds: "I don't particularly but we will get each other through it."

Letby: "We are a good team and we will get through. You did so so well."

The colleague: "We all did - so lucky to work with such an amazing and supportive team."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, October 27

THE trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[notsure]

Click edit, delete everything then type 'dbm' (deleted by me) and save.

Thanks. Alas, the edit time on that post has now elapsed.