UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #22

[esther43]

I'm currently engaged in reading the 'no discussion' thread right from the start. I'm currently on Baby C, and have read the agreed summaries of the parents' police statements. They describe being left alone with the baby while the wait went on for the priest to arrive. They say that there were two nurses who would look in on them from time to time to check how they were; one of which was LL. The father describes, in neutral tones, how hand and footprints were taken 'along with toys that were cotside'. He mentions one of the nurses coming in and asking the 'do you want me to put him in the basket' question; which he says he and his wife were shocked by, and so the nurse backtracked.

The mother doesn't seem to have included this in her police statement, as far as I can tell. The mother mentions being given a lock of the baby's hair.

(as an aside I will mention that other nurses, whose trial testimony I've read so far, have had a lot of 'I don't recall where I was/what I was doing/who did what' moments. As well as giving accounts differing from their police statements. Especially Nurse Taylor. All completely expected and understandable in my opinion. This isn't a factor that only affects the Defendant. My opinion only.

I think it's universally accepted that she was involved in the process but the shift leader testified that LL had to be told more than once to stay out of the bereavement room and leave things to MT.
She had no business being in there, she wasn't assigned any bereavement tasks, the witnesses say all they wanted LL to do was go and look after her allocated baby.

 

[Sundial]

She orchestrated a very long break yesterday with her asking for a “break “ just before an early lunch and an already scheduled court break then not coming back up for the afternoon as planned. She kept the jury over 2 hours only to be released eventually by the trial judge. I suspect behind the scenes all is not well with Letby but that is just a guess on my part. She will have had 4 days to stew in her cell until Wednesday - I couldn’t second guess what’s going to happen next week tbh Dotta.
She may refuse to continue to give evidence and that’s a whole new legal can of worms opened.

The timing of that break was quite convenient when you think about it.

The sequences prior to that, NJ said if he was intimidating her, to say as the trial was beaming (showing?) in other courts (if I read this right?).

He had been asking her about baby boxes and the hand/footprints prior to baby dying and the hospital policy.

Then the alleged falsifying of documents; she said no, he had said “well we’ll get to that”.

Then, the potential upcoming of baby E.

Early break conveniently followed this, perhaps she felt lightheaded or fainted from these confrontations.
It reminds me very much where she was in A&E after the needle stick thing. People were discussing it, the doctor was allegedly demanding from LL how many shots of adrenaline the baby had. She then went to A&E with said injury and “fainted”

Fright or flight. Calm serious Letby? She appeared to get quite narky with JJK and others where support wasn’t there or couldn’t get her own way. But interestingly her reaction with the doctor when he asked how many adrenaline shots were given and she couldn’t give an answer; this reaction seems quite similar to the one with NJ, early break/lunch, not returning.

All my own musings of course
JMO etc

 

[marynnu]

I think it's universally accepted that she was involved in the process but the shift leader testified that LL had to be told more than once to stay out of the bereavement room and leave things to MT.
She had no business being in there, she wasn't assigned any bereavement tasks, the witnesses say all they wanted LL to do was go and look after her allocated baby.

That's the crucial thing, isn't it. She was allocated the patient which the shift lead judged needed the most attention, so should have been with that baby. I can't think of one good reason why she got involved with Baby C in this way, and frankly find it quite bizarre. JMO.

 

[Tortoise]

I'm currently engaged in reading the 'no discussion' thread right from the start. I'm currently on Baby C, and have read the agreed summaries of the parents' police statements. They describe being left alone with the baby while the wait went on for the priest to arrive.

RSBM for focus

Doctors were carrying out prolonged CPR on baby C while they were awaiting the arrival of the priest. It was this that led to the baby showing minimal signs of life for the next several hours and a change in hospital procedure.

"He was next involved with Child C as the on-call consultant, having received an emergency call at about 11.28pm. A note is written, retrospectively, by Dr Gibbs at 12.30am.
He said then when he arrived, efforts were being made by staff to resuscitate Child C.

The resuscitation attempts were said to have "failed" after 40 minutes.
Dr Gibbs said it was "standard practice" for attempts to cease after 20 minutes, but staff would carry on for a little longer "in the hope" of the baby responding.
Resuscitation efforts continued after the 40-minute point while the priest arrived to baptise Child C.
He said, "surprisingly", there were some "minimal" signs of life in Child C, and he was "not sure what to do" as it was "unexpected".
He was "not sure" why a feeble heart rate, and breathing gasps, were being recorded for Child C.
He relayed to the parents that, due to the prolonged time without oxygen, the chances of Child C being brought back without "profound" brain damage were "extremely remote".

Dr Gibbs said it was planned to offer Child C palliative care for his final hours.

The debrief noted that Child C's parents were advised that "further life support measures" were "futile".
Dr Gibbs said the notes said for future situations, rather than prolonging a baby's life with 'token resuscitation efforts' for a priest/vicar to arrive, it would be better for a nursing member of staff to carry out the baptism duties themselves. This would be in the event of following prolonged, and ultimately failed, resuscitation efforts which left a baby with no realistic prospect of survival.

Dr Gibbs said he wants to clarify that he is not blaming the parents for requesting to allow Child C to be baptised, and the wait that followed for a priest and vicar to arrive.
He said the problem was that Child C's heart and lungs restarted following the token efforts to resuscitate, and he could not think why that was the case.
"Whatever catastrophic event that had happened [to Child C] had reversed, or begun to reverse.
"I don't understand that from a natural disease process."
He said it was right the parents requested for a priest to arrive for baptism. He adds the difficulty was that Child C's heart and breathing restarted following that."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Monday, October 31

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

That's the crucial thing, isn't it. She was allocated the patient which the shift lead judged needed the most attention, so should have been with that baby. I can't think of one good reason why she got involved with Baby C in this way, and frankly find it quite bizarre. JMO.

Agreed. If anyone would be doing those tasks, it should be the designated nurse, not someone who wandered off from their own assignment.

 

[Marie Bell]

I think it's universally accepted that she was involved in the process but the shift leader testified that LL had to be told more than once to stay out of the bereavement room and leave things to MT.
She had no business being in there, she wasn't assigned any bereavement tasks, the witnesses say all they wanted LL to do was go and look after her allocated baby.

Do you have a link for 'the witnesses say all they wanted LL to do was go and look after her allocated baby'? I've read the shift leader's evidence, and yes, she did say she told LL to leave it to Nurse Taylor - who had taken over from the overwhelmed Nurse Ellis. But can't recall seeing anyone else talking about this particular aspect of the Baby C case, even though I've literally just read the whole of the case of 'C'.

 

[esther43]

That's the crucial thing, isn't it. She was allocated the patient which the shift lead judged needed the most attention, so should have been with that baby. I can't think of one good reason why she got involved with Baby C in this way, and frankly find it quite bizarre. JMO.

It must have been extremely distressing to the parents to have their child 'come back to life' and it's quite possible that LL wanted to keep checking in to see if the baby was still responding strangely, in a way for example that very strongly implies that bubbles of air had disrupted the cardio respiratory process and that's is why the little babies heart kept going..

 

[Marie Bell]

That's the crucial thing, isn't it. She was allocated the patient which the shift lead judged needed the most attention, so should have been with that baby. I can't think of one good reason why she got involved with Baby C in this way, and frankly find it quite bizarre. JMO.

She says she only became involved when Nurse Ellis needed help. Neither Ellis nor Taylor can accurately remember why Taylor wasn't immediately there to help. Neither Ellis nor Taylor said LL was even there in their original police interviews. As is understandable, nobody's recollections, elicited from them at different times, years later, are perfect.

 

[Dotta]

It’s a shame he’s going alphabetically through the poor babies as someone else mentioned about mixing them up earlier in thread.

I’d’ve liked him to mix them up, after all she says herself she has a good memory… jmo

I do get though that it would be a faff for accessing documentation quickly.

After seemingly endless
"I don't remember",
"I don't recall",
"I have no memory of..."

he managed to make her say that her "memory is good".

Miracle of Miracles!

JMO

 

[Diddly1]

I wonder how long LL will give evidence next week before wanting a break! After NJ stands up? After the first question? Or will she stick it out for the full first hour? Etc
A massive question that keeps coming into my mind is whether this is all about LL wanting to be in control. These are all my musings and MOO.

 

[marynnu]

She says she only became involved when Nurse Ellis needed help. Neither Ellis nor Taylor can accurately remember why Taylor wasn't immediately there to help. Neither Ellis nor Taylor said LL was even there in their original police interviews. As is understandable, nobody's recollections, elicited from them at different times, years later, are perfect.

I don't mean assisting with resus. I was replying to the post re. her involvement with the bereavement process.

 

[WaxLyrical]

Is it normal for a barrister to ask a defendant to let them know if they’re feeling intimidated?

I’ll admit on reading that, it was the first time I’ve paused to consider what NJ’s thoughts are on the whole thing. He’s very experienced in gross negligence Manslaughter cases, if anyone would know if there’s anything to the scapegoat theory, it’s probably him. JMO.

 

[Tortoise]

I really do wonder what JJK makes of all this now. JJK seemed to be dropping hints that she was making the babies death about her and LL was sensitive to this, a couple of times volunteering 'its not about me... It's those poor parents'

Yes, I think she didn't want to be associated by anybody with the death of baby C, after baby A.

She sent two texts that day saying Sophie had him. One to her own mother and the other to a colleague.

JMO

 

[Dotta]

I wonder how long LL will give evidence next week before wanting a break!

Your clue should be when reports will say:

"Mr Ben J KC is 'on his feet' "

JMO

 

[Tortoise]

That's the crucial thing, isn't it. She was allocated the patient which the shift lead judged needed the most attention, so should have been with that baby. I can't think of one good reason why she got involved with Baby C in this way, and frankly find it quite bizarre. JMO.

She also wasn't tending to her own baby before baby C's collapse, from the cross-examination.

"Letby is asked why she let a band 4 nursery nurse look after her designated baby.
Letby says it's "not unusual" for band 4 nurses to assist her in her duties.
LL: "I have no memory of that".
NJ: "Did you have something better to do?"
LL: "No."
Mr Johnson says the text at 11.01pm sent by Letby to Jennifer Jones-Key meant she must not have been in a clinical area, and would not have had time to feed her designated baby in room 3.
LL: "I can't answer that."
Mr Johnson says it took her out of the nursing area. Letby said she would have been "in the doorway" of the unit."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, May 19 - cross-examination continues

 

[marynnu]

Do you have a link for 'the witnesses say all they wanted LL to do was go and look after her allocated baby'? I've read the shift leader's evidence, and yes, she did say she told LL to leave it to Nurse Taylor - who had taken over from the overwhelmed Nurse Ellis. But can't recall seeing anyone else talking about this particular aspect of the Baby C case, even though I've literally just read the whole of the case of 'C'.

'The nurse (shift lead) explains she asked Lucy Letby to focus back on a baby in nursery room 3, but Letby went into the family room "a few times". The nurse recalled asking Lucy Letby to leave the family to Melanie Taylor.

The nurse tells the court Letby did not have any designated duties to be in the family room, and told her "more than once" not to be in the family room.'

Lucy Letby Case 3 Wiki

 

[esther43]

Do you have a link for 'the witnesses say all they wanted LL to do was go and look after her allocated baby'? I've read the shift leader's evidence, and yes, she did say she told LL to leave it to Nurse Taylor - who had taken over from the overwhelmed Nurse Ellis. But can't recall seeing anyone else talking about this particular aspect of the Baby C case, even though I've literally just read the whole of the case of 'C'.

"The nurse, who cannot be identified for legal reasons, said she was more worried about the baby that Letby was tasked to care for in room three, and that in her opinion he was the “most poorly baby” on the unit.

She said: “I was concerned he had some signs of respiratory distress.

“I asked Lucy to increase his observations from two-hourly to one-hourly and asked Lucy to call the registrar on call to come and review him immediately.”

Lucy Letby trial: Accused nurse told to leave alone parents of dying newborn baby, court told

A NURSE accused of multiple baby murders was told to leave alone the parents of a dying newborn boy at the Countess of Chester Hospital, a court has…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[marynnu]

She also wasn't tending to her own baby before baby C's collapse, from the cross-examination.

"Letby is asked why she let a band 4 nursery nurse look after her designated baby.
Letby says it's "not unusual" for band 4 nurses to assist her in her duties.
LL: "I have no memory of that".
NJ: "Did you have something better to do?"
LL: "No."
Mr Johnson says the text at 11.01pm sent by Letby to Jennifer Jones-Key meant she must not have been in a clinical area, and would not have had time to feed her designated baby in room 3.
LL: "I can't answer that."
Mr Johnson says it took her out of the nursing area. Letby said she would have been "in the doorway" of the unit."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, May 19 - cross-examination continues

Interesting that now & then LL doesn't seem to rate nursery nurses too highly, yet when it comes to a baby giving the shift lead some concern it's suddenly OK for one of them to look after that child. If a baby is causing enough concern to justify hourly obs that's potentially a problem.JMO.

 

[Tortoise]

She says she only became involved when Nurse Ellis needed help. Neither Ellis nor Taylor can accurately remember why Taylor wasn't immediately there to help. Neither Ellis nor Taylor said LL was even there in their original police interviews. As is understandable, nobody's recollections, elicited from them at different times, years later, are perfect.

Sophie Ellis did mention it in her police interview.

"Mr Myers puts it to Miss Ellis that Lucy Letby was not in there at the time of the collapse, and only arrived later [during the resuscitation efforts].
Miss Ellis: "I don't agree with that."
Mr Myers: "You have placed her there when you spoke to the police several years later."
Miss Ellis: "I don't agree with that."


Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Friday, October 28

Nurse Mel Taylor said she likely wasn't asked if LL was there, when she wrote her statement. She has demonstrated a good recall of seeing LL IMO, with detail of how she looked and where she was.


"He then pointed out that in her statement to police she said she was called over by Miss Ellis. There had been no mention of Letby.

'I likely wasn't asked if Lucy Letby was there,' said the nurse. 'Now I have been shown that (statement), I can remember Sophie called me over.

'I said at the time what I thought needed to be said. I can tell you now that Lucy was there. I approached the incubator and she was standing on the opposite side. She was the one that suggested putting in an airway'.

Mr Myers contrasted the account she had given in her police statement with what she was now saying in court. 'You've got Lucy Letby right in the centre of this in what you've told the jury'.

She replied: 'I don't know what to say. I'm just saying what I remember. I gave this statement a few years ago, but I remember how cool and calm she was at the time. I can tell you that Lucy was there'. "


Nurse tells court how she found Lucy Letby standing by incubator

 

[Marie Bell]

'The nurse (shift lead) explains she asked Lucy Letby to focus back on a baby in nursery room 3, but Letby went into the family room "a few times". The nurse recalled asking Lucy Letby to leave the family to Melanie Taylor.

The nurse tells the court Letby did not have any designated duties to be in the family room, and told her "more than once" not to be in the family room.'

Lucy Letby Case 3 Wiki

Yes. One witness. The post I'd responded to had said that pretty much everyone had given evidence about this, so I asked for a link to where any other witnesses had said it.