UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #24

[WaxLyrical]

I wish we had decent reporting of the professor's evidence. I have to wonder if he ruled this out because it also seemed to me as if that could be the case, but they're not running with that.

I know, it’s so frustrating.

To be honest, I really wanted more from the prosecution on the insulin, especially with all the talk of it sticking to the giving sets. Because it’s something they can really test, forensically. I would like to know exactly how much insulin would have to be administered to produce the output they observed. I know one of the experts did try to quantify it, and said it was a tiny amount, but it didn’t seem to account for how much would have adhered to the plastic, whether it would be affected by the fluids already in the bag(s). Well, not from the reporting at least.

I think I basically want something that says ‘we’ve tested this, using the same machine/fluid mix/bag type/giving sets’ and based on this we know X amount of insulin would have adhered to the equipment, and in total 3 vials of insulin would need to be used across the poisonings, and 3 extra were ordered that year. I feel like it would be such powerful evidence. Without that, it leaves so many questions, and I find it very frustrating.

 

[notsure]

"I can't answer that", "I can't answer that" - can't or won't? Or can't answer it truthfully? Which is it, Lucy?

If not guilty, I'm not sure how else she could reply. IMO

 

[Jazmania]

I wish we had decent reporting of the professor's evidence. I have to wonder if he ruled this out because it also seemed to me as if that could be the case, but they're not running with that.

I think it's that the same bag was hung up between noon on the 8th April and noon on the 9th. But blood glucose levels were normal until they crashed after 9.30am on the 9th. So insulin must have been added to the bag shortly before that

 

[Jazmania]

I mentioned this weeks and weeks ago but if you are correct and that was actually her motivation, then she cannot be convicted of attempted murder as there is clearly no intent to cause death. Risking death, even if death is extremely likely, is not sufficient.

Thslat is a fact of law and if we are thinking that here then there is every possibility that the jury are too!

MOO!

I'm pretty sure that's not true. For murder you just need to show there was intent to cause serious (grievous bodily) harm.

For attempted murder you need to show intention to kill though.

 

[marynnu]

I think it's that the same bag was hung up between noon on the 8th April and noon on the 9th. But blood glucose levels were normal until they crashed after 9.30am on the 9th. So insulin must have been added to the bag shortly before that

One thing we do not know for sure is the infusion rate. One thing is for certain, it would take several hours for fluid in a bag to reach the baby unless the giving set (tubing) were run through, or also had insulin injected into it.

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

It would be quite difficult to add anything to a bag of dextrose before it's opened for use due to the nature of the packaging. The plastic cover fits closely over both the bung and the port into which the giving set is attached, like it's vacuum packed. And of course if these babies were targeted you'd have no idea which bag to contaminate.
But I agree, reaching up to inject something into a hung bag would be very obvious. You'd have to remove it from the hook and lie it down somewhere I think.

In your experience, is it ever a practice to access the bags once they are hung? There are some situations where we used to draw fluid out of an already hanging bag (1/2 NS to use as a flush, D10 to give an additional bolus), so if I saw a nurse accessing a bag of fluid, I might not think anything of it. Certainly wouldn't think "Gosh is she poisoning the baby."

JMO as always.

 

[Honeybirdette]

2:19pm

The court is told the trial will not be sitting this afternoon or tomorrow (Tuesday).
2:16pm

The judge, Mr Justice James Goss, has entered the courtroom.
The jury have been sent home as one of the jurors is unwell.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 5 - cross-examination continues

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

FFS

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

One thing we do not know for sure is the infusion rate. One thing is for certain, it would take several hours for fluid in a bag to reach the baby unless the giving set (tubing) were run through, or also had insulin injected into it.

How many hours do you think ? Is there a possibility that the insulin could have been already in the bag when it went up at 12pm and didn’t reach the baby / cause the collapse until 9am the next day?

That would make more sense to me. As someone else pointed out, I can see someone furtively injecting a bag which was sitting on a table or a desk, but I find it more difficult to envisage someone going up to a bag that is already hanging up and injecting it with insulin.

Obviously it would only take a matter of seconds to inject a bag, but considering an already hung bag would be there on display in the nursery in view of anyone, the chances and implications of getting caught with a syringe in your hand and injecting the bag whilst it is hanging up seem far huge .

 

[WaxLyrical]

2:19pm

The court is told the trial will not be sitting this afternoon or tomorrow (Tuesday).
2:16pm

The judge, Mr Justice James Goss, has entered the courtroom.
The jury have been sent home as one of the jurors is unwell.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 5 - cross-examination continues

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

FFS

This trial is never going to end. And part day Wednesday as won’t run past 3pm. Assuming the juror is not sick any more.

Shame for our friend that travelled there.

 

[Tortoise]

I have to say I thought dextrose was added neat to the bags, to increase the rate say from 10% to 15%, and we also know that extra boluses of dextrose were prescribed. But I have absolutely no knowledge or understanding of how these things are done. I did think they were little bottles rather than bags.

 

[Blondiexoxo]

Quotes from today in bold..

NJKC: "Why would you NOT put insulin into one of these bags?"
LL: "Because it’s against all practice"
NJKC: "It’s highly dangerous isn’t it?"
LL: "Yes"
NJKC: "Life threatening to a child of this age?"
LL: "Yes"

IMO it is telling that her first reason for why not to put insulin in a TPN bag is because ‘it’s against practice’ and not that ‘it could kill a child’ or even that it is dangerous and could harm. NJ has to suggest the dangers first.

Then this statement….

Nick Johnson KC: "It was a targeted attack wasn’t it. What do you say?"
Lucy Letby: "Not by me it wasn’t"
NJKC: "Poisoning a child in the same way baby F was poisoned"
LL: "Yes"
NJKC: "With the same substance"
LL: "Yes"

And this…

Mr Johnson says the reason for the hypoglycaemia was that someone had poisoned Child L through 'at least two' bags of insulin.
LL: "Yes."
NJ: "And that was you, wasn't it?"
LL: "No."

Both conflict IMO with this….

NJKC: "So do you accept that baby F was poisoned deliberately?"
LL: "I can’t answer that because I don’t know how insulin got into the bag, or who put it there or why"

She accepts that baby L was poisoned with insulin yet csnt say whether it was a deliberate poisoning? To me the word ‘poisoning’ in this context, implies intent IMO.
How can you say someone put insulin in the bag and the child was poisoned, but also say you don’t know how the insulin got there - someone put it there.
And can’t say if it was deliberate - why else would someone put insulin in the bag when it cannot be done accidentally? And not just a one bag but multiple bags? How can that not be deliberate?

It’s such a blatant contradiction that makes absolutely zero sense IMO…

 

[Tortoise]

I'm so gutted for @CS2C ! Unbelievable bad luck, and so frustrating for all involved.

 

[Blondiexoxo]

2:19pm

The court is told the trial will not be sitting this afternoon or tomorrow (Tuesday).
2:16pm

The judge, Mr Justice James Goss, has entered the courtroom.
The jury have been sent home as one of the jurors is unwell.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 5 - cross-examination continues

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

FFS

My goodness this is getting beyond ridiculous now. I had so much hope this morning for a full week too!

I do have to wonder if it is the same juror or possibly two jurors who are the source of delays.
MOO

 

[CS2C]

Trial adjourned, member of the jury has been rushed into emergency surgery apparently. Not sure when the trial will resume.

Cannot believe it

 

[Blondiexoxo]

Trial adjourned, member of the jury has been rushed into emergency surgery apparently. Not sure when the trial will resume.

Cannot believe it

IMO if they want the trial to end sometime before 2024 then this juror will end up being dismissed.
Surgery would require more than a day off more like weeks of recovery time. If judge doesn’t dismiss this juror it’s unlikely the trial will return anytime this month! MOO

 

[marynnu]

How many hours do you think ? Is there a possibility that the insulin could have been already in the bag when it went up at 12pm and didn’t reach the baby / cause the collapse until 9am the next day?

That would make more sense to me. As someone else pointed out, I can see someone furtively injecting a bag which was sitting on a table or a desk, but I find it more difficult to envisage someone going up to a bag that is already hanging up and injecting it with insulin.

Obviously it would only take a matter of seconds to inject a bag, but considering an already hung bag would be there on display in the nursery in view of anyone, the chances and implications of getting caught with a syringe in your hand and injecting the bag whilst it is hanging up seem far huge .

I seem to remember I made a rough calculation way back - based on baby's weight and age - and I reckon 4-5 hours to get from bag to baby (sets typically contain about 20mls of fluid).

 

[marynnu]

I have to say I thought dextrose was added neat to the bags, to increase the rate say from 10% to 15%, and we also know that extra boluses of dextrose were prescribed. But I have absolutely no knowledge or understanding of how these things are done. I did think they were little bottles rather than bags.

The basic fluid is a 500ml bag of 10% glucose. To increase the concentration you remove a set amount from the bag and replace with the same amount of 50% glucose. The 50% comes in small glass bottles.

 

[Tortoise]

The basic fluid is a 500ml bag of 10% glucose. To increase the concentration you remove a set amount from the bag and replace with the same amount of 50% glucose. The 50% comes in small glass bottles.

Thanks. So is it possible the small bottles could have been contaminated with insulin?

 

[Tortoise]

This was one of Professor Hindmarsh's statements from Dan's Tweet at the time -

Prof Hindmarsh said insulin could be added "fairly easily" through a portal that's located at the bottom of the feed bags.

https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue

 

[marynnu]

In your experience, is it ever a practice to access the bags once they are hung? There are some situations where we used to draw fluid out of an already hanging bag (1/2 NS to use as a flush, D10 to give an additional bolus), so if I saw a nurse accessing a bag of fluid, I might not think anything of it. Certainly wouldn't think "Gosh is she poisoning the baby."

JMO as always.

You're correct, but you'd never do either independently. So if a nurse were alone at an incubator doing this it would look very suspicious.