UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #25

[Kemug]

I wonder when did LL find out doc choc was married? Was it around the time of the incidents, or after she had been removed from the unit or maybe even after her arrest. You know when she apologises to him for being ‘off’ at work earlier that day, could a colleague have possibly told her he was married at that point? JMO
MOO

Surely when he mentioned his children (as in he would trust them to her) she would have asked if he was married.

 

[Penny68]

At least no homes would ever be built in that area, the cemetery will stay for all time.

It wouldn't bother me in the least if I say moved and lived close to a cemetery.

At the back of my garden there was a farm with a lot of land, so nice and cows as well as horses often would come to the garden fence for a little peep.

Word got about that the farmer had reached retirement age and had intended to sell the land. Yikes, all thought houses would be built and the beautiful open view would be destroyed.

But luck had it the local authority bought the land from him for a secondary school to be built.

That is now done of course and situated well away from properties, sort of tucked up in the corner and all else is playing fields for the school.

At least no homes will be built there.

 

[Becky53]

Like with many other minor details in this case, it's only relevant if she's guilty.

The relevance is that she purchased a house in March 2016, in the middle of the alleged June 2015 - June 2016 charges, that is the very house that is directly behind the baby memorial garden in a very large cemetery. It's literally the closest house possible to this little baby garden. In the winter when the trees between her garden and the memorial garden were bare, she would have been able to view it from her upstairs windows. I think this is relevant given that the prosecution allege she enjoyed watching the aftermath of deaths, including the Facebook searches. It is also relevant in that if guilty, serial killers often like to be near the bodies of their victims.

Also, when she purchased this house, there was already a children's bedroom with this design on the wall:

<modsnip: No link; ALL images require a link to source>

Which looks very like the owls in Nursery 2, where several of the babies were allegedly attacked:


<modsnip: No link; ALL images require a link to source>


If guilty, I cannot see any of this as a coincidence. JMO.

Now if there was a picture of the bedroom overlooking the cemetery with a pair of binoculars on the window ledge I could be swayed but yet again she could just have them for birdwatching…

jmo

 

[Legal]

Snipped for focus, by me.

Tortoise, I agree with the points about the relationship.

I have never heard of someone not being present in court for their sentencing - is that a 'thing' ?

Yes, very cowardly and shouldn't be allowed IMO as they should be forced to hear the sentencing remarks. It happened recently in the same Manchester Crown Court when Thomas Cashman refused to be present for his sentencing for murdering a 9 year old girl.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Surely when he mentioned his children (as in he would trust them to her) she would have asked if he was married.

She probably knew and hoped he'd leave his wife / partner for her in due course.

<modsnip>

 

[Sweeper2000]

@Parker Knoll @Observe_dont_Absorb

i do think all in all a nurse who deals with life and death on a daily basis might not as Parker said want to look at just another reminder of the inevitable negatives of the job for the entirety of winter which is already a grim and grey time. Assuming it’s visible when winter comes. Home is supposed to be a place of refuge. However it is still a mile away from work which is probably a trump card.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

RSBM

I think it isn't impossible that he did have real feelings for her, and maybe they could have eventually married and lived happily ever after. If things had been otherwise. If LL had been otherwise.

Well you give him far greater credit than I. Usually married men are looking for a bit of something on the side to boost their ego and escape the mundanity of domesticity and young children parenting. They don't usually wreck their own homes, just lead their affair on.

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

I've been thinking about Dr choc again.

1. That 'go commando' text message to the colleague where she starts off saying she 'had a strange message from doc choc' ...

But then she denies a romantic connection. But why send the message in the first place? It's like she wants a chance to deny it, or to play innocent. Something v manipulative about the whole exchange, like it's a game she's playing.

This led me to think about:

2. the weeping LL did when doc choc appeared on the stand.

If guilty, I wonder if she was hoping for some kind of narrative about her being the victim of the mean doctor.

IMO that weeping is similar to the manipulation of the colleague in the text, it's sort of 'off' , doesn't really make sense. If you are on trial for murdering babies, it's just impossible to fathom that even an actual AFFAIR would lead to that kind of dramatic emotional reaction.

But she then goes on to deny that relationship on the stand.

So why do the weeping?

If guilty, I think she was expecting, in the beginning, that it would be easy for her to get sympathy, feign naivety, play the victim, manipulate the truth, her usual MO which has been so successful throughout her life. If guilty, she underestimated the prosecution IMO and the value other humans place on TRUTH.

I wonder what her demeanour will be during closing statements.

Will we get more weeping?

My theory is that when she saw him get on the stand, she thought that he would either reveal something she didn’t want him to reveal, or would give damning evidence against her. So she was anticipating a public betrayal.

As it turns out, his evidence was very much a nonevent. It was just him recounting that he was called to a ward a particular time and looked at a baby . No revelations of any alleged affair. No recounting any dodgy conversations. But she didn’t know that when he appeared. JMO

 

[Anxala]

Now if there was a picture of the bedroom overlooking the cemetery with a pair of binoculars on the window ledge I could be swayed but yet again she could just have them for birdwatching…

jmo

Maybe she bought the house for owl bird-watching since owls are common in cemeteries (a favoured habitat of theirs, in fact, google just told me. The old undisturbed trees apparently have the type of accommodating deep hollows owls like).

 

[Becky53]

LL episode of Kirsty and Phil’s Location, location, location

under £200k
proximity to work
3 bed with garden
good amenities and nightlife
overlooking cemetery

 

[Sundial]

Like with many other minor details in this case, it's only relevant if she's guilty.

The relevance is that she purchased a house in March 2016, in the middle of the alleged June 2015 - June 2016 charges, that is the very house that is directly behind the baby memorial garden in a very large cemetery. It's literally the closest house possible to this little baby garden. In the winter when the trees between her garden and the memorial garden were bare, she would have been able to view it from her upstairs windows. I think this is relevant given that the prosecution allege she enjoyed watching the aftermath of deaths, including the Facebook searches. It is also relevant in that if guilty, serial killers often like to be near the bodies of their victims.

Also, when she purchased this house, there was already a children's bedroom with this design on the wall:

<modsnip: No link; ALL images require a link to source>

Which looks very like the owls in Nursery 2, where several of the babies were allegedly attacked:


<modsnip: No link; ALL images require a link to source>


If guilty, I cannot see any of this as a coincidence. JMO.

The interesting thing here; I was looking at the decor on this one room at her house only yesterday, and thinking about what was said about the memorial being right behind the house.
Then we have the dozens of handovers, the shredder in the spare bedroom, the condolence card she kept a picture of on her phone..(I can’t recall the defence presenting lots of the “other” pics of cards she’d sent and kept photos of them, unless I missed it!)

The bedroom with the owl decor *could* have been from previous owner but as you point out; it’s eerily very similar to the nursery at the hospital you have shared- and secondly, the bedroom decor im sure is a wall sticker/stencil I’ve seen in shops/online before. There’s nothing to say she could have bought this wall stencil as a mock-up to replicate the scene at the hospital. If guilty.

If guilty, it’s very weird that she also so happens to have the house which overlooks this memorial, wanted to go to the funeral of one of the babies listed in the charges and also has a book “supporting friend with grief” (or title along those lines). If guilty she is also (in groups and quick succession) searching like some strange stalking behaviour the parents of babies who have died, been harmed, or whose twin is still even on the unit.
She is also the only one present for all these cases.

What are the odds or even coincidences that the accused happens to have that very house in that location around the time these events were happening- which makes me wonder if that house belonged to someone she may have known or IF she was lodging there at any point prior to the events. Could it be someone she knows and she was then living there and took over/paying the mortgage?

Has she lost a baby herself, a twin, has someone close to her (or even she lived with) lost a baby?

I keep thinking back to dr choc and the things on those notes;
. I trusted you with everything
. I loved you
What is ^^^^ “trusted with everything”?

The whole case is quite vague in places but there appears to be definitely something very strange about where she was living, the charges, the lies, how these babies came to harm, the text messages, the card she saved on her phone and sent on the day of the funeral.

She said;
“Nobody will ever understand what happened or why”

“I’m evil” and the “I did this on purpose”

Really very odd and when you think about the “rest breaks” she’s needed throughout the trial, disappears after lunch during the trial and didn’t come back, the judge says “not to concern yourself with” etc.

I genuinely feel there is SO much more going on here IMO

JMO if guilty.
Moo

 

[Tortoise]

Snipped for focus, by me.

Tortoise, I agree with the points about the relationship.

I have never heard of someone not being present in court for their sentencing - is that a 'thing' ?

Yes, it happens all to frequently.

Faces of selfish killers who refused to appear in court for their sentencing

Thomas Cashman became the latest killer to not appear in court for sentencing - an act Justice Yip branded 'disrespectful' as he said his case had turned into a 'circus'

www.mirror.co.uk

Thomas Cashman: Renewed call to force criminals to attend sentencing

A murder victim's aunt also wants judges to be able to punish criminals who refuse to attend court.

www.bbc.co.uk

"The BBC understands the government is looking to bring in the new legislation before the next general election.
Following McSweeney's sentencing, Mr Raab said in February he was examining whether judges should be able to impose longer terms on those who refused to come to court."

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

Snipped for focus, by me.

Tortoise, I agree with the points about the relationship.

I have never heard of someone not being present in court for their sentencing - is that a 'thing' ?

Yes, the court doesn’t tend to wrestle people into the court .

It’s annoying for the victims if they want to see the person actual receive the sentence in person. But I suppose that if an accused is being uncooperative like this, that is another factor which the judge can take into account when sentencing (ie longer sentence because no remorse shown and disrespect/contempt for the court process).

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

The interesting thing here; I was looking at the decor on this one room at her house only yesterday, and thinking about what was said about the memorial being right behind the house.
Then we have the dozens of handovers, the shredder in the spare bedroom, the condolence card she kept a picture of on her phone..(I can’t recall the defence presenting lots of the “other” pics of cards she’d sent and kept photos of them, unless I missed it!)

The bedroom with the owl decor *could* have been from previous owner but as you point out; it’s eerily very similar to the nursery at the hospital you have shared- and secondly, the bedroom decor im sure is a wall sticker/stencil I’ve seen in shops/online before. There’s nothing to say she could have bought this wall stencil as a mock-up to replicate the scene at the hospital. If guilty.

If guilty, it’s very weird that she also so happens to have the house which overlooks this memorial, wanted to go to the funeral of one of the babies listed in the charges and also has a book “supporting friend with grief” (or title along those lines). If guilty she is also (in groups and quick succession) searching like some strange stalking behaviour the parents of babies who have died, been harmed, or whose twin is still even on the unit.
She is also the only one present for all these cases.

What are the odds or even coincidences that the accused happens to have that very house in that location around the time these events were happening- which makes me wonder if that house belonged to someone she may have known or IF she was lodging there at any point prior to the events. Could it be someone she knows and she was then living there and took over/paying the mortgage?

Has she lost a baby herself, a twin, has someone close to her (or even she lived with) lost a baby?

I keep thinking back to dr choc and the things on those notes;
. I trusted you with everything
. I loved you
What is ^^^^ “trusted with everything”?

The whole case is quite vague in places but there appears to be definitely something very strange about where she was living, the charges, the lies, how these babies came to harm, the text messages, the card she saved on her phone and sent on the day of the funeral.

She said;
“Nobody will ever understand what happened or why”

“I’m evil” and the “I did this on purpose”

Really very odd and when you think about the “rest breaks” she’s needed throughout the trial, disappears after lunch during the trial and didn’t come back, the judge says “not to concern yourself with” etc.

I genuinely feel there is SO much more going on here IMO

JMO if guilty.
Moo

I don’t have the energy to search myself, but if someone knows/can find out the road she lived in, and the year she bought the house, you may well be able to go onto Zoopla or a similar site and see the purchase history for the property. Quite often, there will also be the photos of the property which were used to market the property at the time it was sold (archived). So you may find a photo of the room in question and will be able to see whether or not the owl decoration is there.

 

[marynnu]

I don’t have the energy to search myself, but if someone knows/can find out the road she lived in, and the year she bought the house, you may well be able to go onto Zoopla or a similar site and see the purchase history for the property. Quite often, there will also be the photos of the property which were used to market the property at the time it was sold (archived). So you may find a photo of the room in question and will be able to see whether or not the owl decoration is there.

The owl decoration was definitely there before she bought the house.

 

[Sundial]

I don’t have the energy to search myself, but if someone knows/can find out the road she lived in, and the year she bought the house, you may well be able to go onto Zoopla or a similar site and see the purchase history for the property. Quite often, there will also be the photos of the property which were used to market the property at the time it was sold (archived). So you may find a photo of the room in question and will be able to see whether or not the owl decoration is there.

I did attempt this yesterday actually but weirdly (perhaps understandably), it appears to have been removed. I can’t find anything. There is just the one site I found it on but this is the sale AFTER her arrests.
Even with the photos following LL arrest, there are 12 photos of the property but they aren’t accessible anymore. I can only see them as individual photos through Google images and these appear to be ones all taken after her arrest.

 

[marynnu]

I did attempt this yesterday actually but weirdly (perhaps understandably), it appears to have been removed. I can’t find anything. There is just the one site I found it on but this is the sale AFTER her arrests.
Even with the photos following LL arrest, there are 12 photos of the property but they aren’t accessible anymore. I can only see them as individual photos through Google images and these appear to be ones all taken after her arrest.

It's easy to find on Rightmove.

 

[Penny68]

.. I removed the home link, as I wasn't too sure afterwards if that was where LL had moved to. Although it certainly looked similar.

 

[Jayney404]

I see see power and control as a major issue for ll if guilty. There is a realistic probability she would not attend sentencing as a last ditch bid to retain some vestige of control.

Examples I see as relevant are:

- leaving court when doc choc gave evidence. For me the leaving wasn’t due to genuine emotion, but to exert control. The only control mechanism available was to absent herself.

-the breakdowns and asking for rests when NJ stated to ask difficult questions. Again for me this was her controlling the situation and not allowing something to be ‘done to her’. In some cases even remaining silent and looking away.

-Admonishing a nurse for calling for help for a deteriorating baby, it was very much for ll to control these crisis situations.

-discovering the baby pale in the cot from the long disputed ‘dingey doorway’. Again ll was controlling when the discovery was made and by whom.

-controlling the flow of information to off duty staff. Ll seemed to enjoy the power of imparting this information. In one instance you see her message someone who’s already been informed of a babies situation and her immediate question is who told you?

-Victim typology. It’s unfortunate but highly unlikely that ll was (allegedly) murdering some babies then giving others 5 star care. It’s highly likely that many of the children who interfaced with her alone suffered some adverse outcome however minor that may been. ll would have significant control in these situations with non-verbal victims.

-the fury over the blanket email detailing her transfer to the patient safety team that was ‘done to’ her.

It’s all pure conjecture on my part and based solely on a limited observation of behaviour in a completely artificial environment.


IF guilty Moo moo moo

 

[Parker Knoll]

I know - it’s ridiculous they have any choice in the matter.
The sooner it’s changed the better.
This case is strange and dark enough as it is but I feel it’s going to get a whole lot darker IF she’s found guilty.
There is so much I feel going on in the background.
MOO