UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #27

[Moll]

... Criminals shooting into crows doesn't unless it was happening on a very regular basis, IMO.

No, I've never been fond of crows, somehow.

 

[Legal]

It must have been that gang of 4 again!

It was the plumber!

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

I see what you're getting at but I still don't think it qualifies, imo. In Couzens, the court referred to crimes which are an attack on the “the fundamental underpinnings of our democratic way of life”. As horrific as shooting into a crowd is, it is exceedingly rare here and could never approach that level of danger to society.

The police are appointed by the state as part of those "underpinnings" and if they start going rouge and using their police powers to abduct and murder people that poses a significant risk to society at large. Criminals shooting into crows doesn't unless it was happening on a very regular basis, IMO.

Yes, to paraphrase what I think the judge was saying: some people are Bad People , and whilst they can cause unimaginable pain and suffering by killing a person, their actions do not usually have the potential to shake the core of the foundations on which our society is built.

Where you have Bad People who are also performing certain public roles which are seen as a linchpin of our society (such as the police, or NHS doctors or nurses) , then their actions don’t just cause pain for the victim and their family: they also cause the general public to question the trust which we place (and indeed are asked to place ) in such people in order for them to carry out their roles within society.

I think you can see the impact of this with Wayne Couzens: I have lost count of the number of times I have read people saying how that case (along with a few other cases of serving police officers committing crimes which have subsequently come out) has made them not trust the police (particularly women ). As a society, it is generally expected that citizens will comply with the directions given to them by police. But if there is widespread distrust in the police and people no longer place their trust in serving police officers , it has a much wider implications for the maintenance of law and order.

 

[ColourPurple]

Then there are those who can't follow the complex terms and conditions of the competition entry form

In the shredder -

Thurs 13th July 2pm to 4pm - @Parker Knoll
Thurs 13th July 2.30pm - @Kemug
Thurs 13th July 3.37pm - @Legal
Fri 14th July 12.45pm - @ColourPurple

Competition closing date Mon 10th July 2023 10.30am

LMAO. Honestly I tried, but for some reason my brain couldn't work out a length of time from an undetermined point in time but could happily come up with a day

 

[ColourPurple]

According to last nights local news no shots have been fired on Merseyside for 6 months. I find that hard to believe to be perfectly honest but that was stated.
It has to be a very heavy sentence this afternoon.

I hope it's true but I think it's more likely that no shots have been reported to police on Merseyside for 6 months.

 

[Parker Knoll]

Far more likely CP

 

[ColourPurple]

The reason I think it could be in line for a WLO, even though it was just a random guy that shot into the crowd indiscriminately, is it fits this description you gave already:

I think the term refers to cases which are not merely horrific and wholly beyond the realms of decent society but which go further than that. The court in sentencing Couzens made it clear that his crime which, in addition to being absolutely horrific and despicable, was one which struck at the very core of civilised society; one which, if were a regular occurrence, could literally undermine the foundations and functioning of society...


If people dismiss the horrific devastation that comes with people randomly shooting automatic weapons into random crowds, it could get way out of control, much like we see now in our country. JMO

My gut reaction is that horrible as the shooting was, WLOs need to be reserved for the very worst crimes and the shooting doesn't fall into that category.

 

[DinerMite]

I thought it was interesting how we hadn't heard much from the nurse who was her 'best friend' throughout the trial. As per the rota it looks like she was only ever on shift for 2 of the collapses - standard shift patterns or careful planning by LL maybe?

 

[Sweeper2000]

My gut reaction is that horrible as the shooting was, WLOs need to be reserved for the very worst crimes and the shooting doesn't fall into that category.

I think that as well. Targeted shooting gone wrong. He has not been presented as someone whom is a threat to the general public. still filth ofc but not at that level.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I thought it was interesting how we hadn't heard much from the nurse who was her 'best friend' throughout the trial. As per the rota it looks like she was only ever on shift for 2 of the collapses - standard shift patterns or careful planning by LL maybe?

That nurse may not be relevant to any of the facts or have anything meaningful to contribute to either side, though.

 

[Jazmania]

Deliberations Predictions

9h 30m - @Tortoise
11h 30m - @Becci
12h 41m - @marynnu
14h 20m - @Becky53
15h 20m - @JosieJo
15h 45m - @katydid23
28h 28m - @DianaWW
31h 30m - @Sweeper2000
35h 25m - @Dotta

Then there are those who can't follow the complex terms and conditions of the competition entry form

In the shredder -

Thurs 13th July 2pm to 4pm - @Parker Knoll
Thurs 13th July 2.30pm - @Kemug
Thurs 13th July 3.37pm - @Legal
Fri 14th July 12.45pm - @ColourPurple

Competition closing date Mon 10th July 2023 10.30am

Can I get in on this and say 16 hours? Does this include (home made) sandwich breaks?

 

[DinerMite]

That nurse may not be relevant to any of the facts or have anything meaningful to contribute to either side, though.

That's my point really. She hasn't much to offer because she was hardly ever there for the collapses which I found interesting. Was that because shifts naturally never aligned or did LL consider who was on shift before allegedly attacking the children? I find it difficult to believe IF guilty that LL had not considered who would be on shift.

 

[Penny68]

Deliberations Predictions

I think 17h 40m

 

[Tortoise]

Can I get in on this and say 16 hours? Does this include (home made) sandwich breaks?

Yes, just waiting for next thread to post an updated list. I'll be deducting an hour a day for feeding and watering, unless the court gives us an exact time for deliberations.

 

[Tortoise]

That's my point really. She hasn't much to offer because she was hardly ever there for the collapses which I found interesting. Was that because shifts naturally never aligned or did LL consider who was on shift before allegedly attacking the children? I find it difficult to believe IF guilty that LL had not considered who would be on shift.

She was the designated nurse for baby G, who went on her break and LL said she might have overfed her but then agreed it was not a realistic possibility. Nearly under the bus.

 

[Alyce]

The guidelines, though, are statutory so the judge is quite restricted in how much leeway he has; it wasn't a murder done for gain, for a religious or political motives, didn't involve abduction of a child or any sexual or sadistic motivations. I do get that he was a professional criminal but I don't think that that makes the cut. I reckon his starting point will be 30 years.

On the issue of the gun; the media are very keen to make out that it was a machine gun (fully automatic) but it likely wasn't. The evidence in the trial was that even if it was then he fired it in semi-automatic mode - there is apparently a video but I haven't seen it. If it had have been capable of full-auto fire I think he'd have used it. In fact, had it been fired fully auto I think there's a decent chance he would have caused less destruction than he actually did as it would have been rather uncontrollable and the majority of shots would have likely gone high.

Anyway, I think I'm drifting a bit OT here.

there are vids on the main thread and background info elsewhere

I’ll say no more here, as don’t want to go off topic

 

[Diddly1]

Deliberation prediction 10hrs 15mins

 

[DinerMite]

She was the designated nurse for baby G, who went on her break and LL said she might have overfed her but then agreed it was not a realistic possibility. Nearly under the bus.

Once cornered no one was spared, even her 'best friend'

 

[Dcflag]

Deliberations Predictions

9h 30m - @Tortoise
11h 30m - @Becci
12h 41m - @marynnu
14h 20m - @Becky53
15h 20m - @JosieJo
15h 45m - @katydid23
28h 28m - @DianaWW
31h 30m - @Sweeper2000
35h 25m - @Dotta

Then there are those who can't follow the complex terms and conditions of the competition entry form

In the shredder -

Thurs 13th July 2pm to 4pm - @Parker Knoll
Thurs 13th July 2.30pm - @Kemug
Thurs 13th July 3.37pm - @Legal
Fri 14th July 12.45pm - @ColourPurple

Competition closing date Mon 10th July 2023 10.30am

23 hours 12 minutes!

 

[abovethestorm]

Deliberations Predictions

9h 30m - @Tortoise
11h 30m - @Becci
12h 41m - @marynnu
14h 20m - @Becky53
15h 20m - @JosieJo
15h 45m - @katydid23
28h 28m - @DianaWW
31h 30m - @Sweeper2000
35h 25m - @Dotta

Then there are those who can't follow the complex terms and conditions of the competition entry form

In the shredder -

Thurs 13th July 2pm to 4pm - @Parker Knoll
Thurs 13th July 2.30pm - @Kemug
Thurs 13th July 3.37pm - @Legal
Fri 14th July 12.45pm - @ColourPurple

Competition closing date Mon 10th July 2023 10.30am

22 hours 22 minutes