VERDICT WATCH UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #29

[iamshadow21]

I think some might call that a grey area. Showing signs of life is different from being alive. Jmo.

It wasn't a grey area in the eyes of the parents, which is the reason it was so inappropriate.

MOO

 

[DianaWW]

Yes but it was exceptionally unusual, and apparently unprecedented, that he was still alive and that a number of hours had passed since resuscitation efforts stopped. It’s possible the nurse who said this (assume it’s been confirmed it was Letby?) did not realise the baby still had signs of life, and “normal process” was cold cot after X amount of time.

Just speculating.

It's not just about the usual process though. The shift lead had to ask her to leave those parents alone on more than one occasion. She wasn't even the designated nurse.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Has anyone entertained the idea that she said that because it was one of those situations in which someone might fumble their words in some way? Ie the pressure got to them. It could read that to me.

 

[marynnu]

Yes but it was exceptionally unusual, and apparently unprecedented, that he was still alive and that a number of hours had passed since resuscitation efforts stopped. It’s possible the nurse who said this (assume it’s been confirmed it was Letby?) did not realise the baby still had signs of life, and “normal process” was cold cot after X amount of time.

Just speculating.

In my view no nurse would treat a patient as dead until it's been certified by a doctor. I've seen a baby take an occasional gasp for a whole day, and you just wait.

 

[Sweeper2000]

It wasn't a grey area in the eyes of the parents, which is the reason it was so inappropriate.

MOO

Yeh that’s true. Totally think it was actually a emotionally proportionate reaction tbh.

I can see assuming innocence that any nurse might not have the composure in that situation to conform to the guidelines tbh. I’d feel very very pressured to not say something wrong which for some makes them say the wrong thing.

 

[Tortoise]

"2:29pm

Dr Davis said baptism of Child C took place, and it was noted during the resuscitation attempts that a capnograph on Child C had detected carbon dioxide coming out of the baby boy. The on-call consultant was called.
The baptism and blessing were completed.
"Unexpectedly," Dr Davis said, Child C was gasping and had a heart rate at this time.
A discussion was had at the "appropriate way forward", and "unfortunately", it was concluded Child C would have had a lack of oxygen to the brain for a "prolonged time" which would have left him with significant damage to the brain and potential other issues, such as kidney damage.
Morphine was administered to Child C for pain relief, following a discussion with Child C's parents, as Child C was "unlikely to survive".

2:31pm

Dr Davis said she was later called by a family member of Child C to be informed they had believed Child C had died, and she explains she would have carried out the necessary observations, and verified the baby boy had passed away."

--

"The resuscitation attempts were said to have "failed" after 40 minutes.
Dr Gibbs said it was "standard practice" for attempts to cease after 20 minutes, but staff would carry on for a little longer "in the hope" of the baby responding.
Resuscitation efforts continued after the 40-minute point while the priest arrived to baptise Child C.
He said, "surprisingly", there were some "minimal" signs of life in Child C, and he was "not sure what to do" as it was "unexpected".
He was "not sure" why a feeble heart rate, and breathing gasps, were being recorded for Child C.
He relayed to the parents that, due to the prolonged time without oxygen, the chances of Child C being brought back without "profound" brain damage were "extremely remote".

3:53pm

Dr Gibbs said it was planned to offer Child C palliative care for his final hours."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Monday, October 31

 

[Dotta]

I somehow have a feeling,
IF she is guilty,
that she felt possessive about (alleged) victims.

As if she was anxious to put her hands on them as soon as possible
(doing memory boxes, bathing them, being with them, etc.)

As if the parents were rivals.

Also,
Didn't she write that "nobody but her" will remember them always?

Very strange

JMO

 

[ColourPurple]

Has anyone entertained the idea that she said that because it was one of those situations in which someone might fumble their words in some way? Ie the pressure got to them. It could read that to me.

She wasn't even supposed to be there with the parents. It's not really a case of her finding herself in an unavoidably awkward situation and not knowing what to say. She deliberately put herself in that situation, presumably because that's where she wanted to be, rather than looking after her designated baby.

 

[iamshadow21]

Has anyone entertained the idea that she said that because it was one of those situations in which someone might fumble their words in some way? Ie the pressure got to them. It could read that to me.

The situation where she's intruding on the final moments the parents have with their child, when it isn't even her patient, when she's been reprimanded for neglecting her actual patient and told to keep out by her supervisor?

That's a situation beyond fumbling in an emotionally charged moment, and I say that as an autistic person who struggles to say the right thing with regularity. I guess the difference with me is, if I say the wrong thing, I apologise and I feel shame over it rather than persisting. I don't understand that one bit.

MOO

 

[MissMarbles]

We're well over 50 pages now on this thread..... does anyone know how/who creates a new thread? Just think it makes sense to do asap in case this discussion gets a flurry of activity.

 

[WaxLyrical]

I take on board all your comments, and was not intending to ‘defend’ Letby, just speculating as to why the hospital may have wanted the baby into a cold cot.

Ultimately it would have been in Letby’s best interests if guilty to ‘sabotage’ the post mortem too, so I’m just trying to square some circles so to speak.

 

[iamshadow21]

I take on board all your comments, and was not intending to ‘defend’ Letby, just speculating as to why the hospital may have wanted the baby into a cold cot.

Ultimately it would have been in Letby’s best interests if guilty to ‘sabotage’ the post mortem too, so I’m just trying to square some circles so to speak.

If guilty, in my opinion her behaviour postmortem is more indicative of signature behaviour than anything practical to do with obscuring the nature of the death, and as such, it's more about gratification than anything else.

MOO

 

[Sweeper2000]

Has anyone entertained the idea that she said that because it was one of those situations in which someone might fumble their words in some way? Ie the pressure got to them. It could read that to me.

@ColourPurple
“She wasn't even supposed to be there with the parents. It's not really a case of her finding herself in an unavoidably awkward situation and not knowing what to say. She deliberately put herself in that situation, presumably because that's where she wanted to be, rather than looking after her designated baby.”

Wait, so I remember asking this at the time this info was presented. was this something ll took on herself then and wasn’t asked to retrieve and place in the cold cot by her senior or acting senior? thats new info to me.

 

[ColourPurple]

I somehow have a feeling,
IF she is guilty,
that she felt possessive about (alleged) victims.

As if she was anxious to put her hands on them as soon as possible (doing memory boxes, being with them, etc)
As if the parents were rivals.

Also,
Didn't she write that "nobody but her" will remember them always?

Very strange

JMO

I'm reminded of the Ted Bundy quotes:

“Murder is not just a crime of lust or violence. It becomes possession. They are part of you…[the victim] becomes a part of you and you [two] are forever one…and the grounds where you kill them or leave them become sacred to you, and you will always be drawn back to them.”

“The ultimate possession was, in fact, the taking of the life. And then…the physical possession of the remains.”

 

[Parker Knoll]

It does say predatory behaviour to me.
She didn’t have to be there in fact she absolutely should not of been there.
It’s madness.
JMO

 

[Dotta]

I'm reminded of the Ted Bundy quotes:

“Murder is not just a crime of lust or violence. It becomes possession. They are part of you…[the victim] becomes a part of you and you [two] are forever one…and the grounds where you kill them or leave them become sacred to you, and you will always be drawn back to them.”

“The ultimate possession was, in fact, the taking of the life. And then…the physical possession of the remains.”

Exactly.

And mind the view from her window at home

JMO

 

[marynnu]

The situation where she's intruding on the final moments the parents have with their child, when it isn't even her patient, when she's been reprimanded for neglecting her actual patient and told to keep out by her supervisor?

That's a situation beyond fumbling in an emotionally charged moment, and I say that as an autistic person who struggles to say the right thing with regularity. I guess the difference with me is, if I say the wrong thing, I apologise and I feel shame over it rather than persisting. I don't understand that one bit.

MOO

I don't understand it either. Not to mention that it was totally unnecessary to put herself in that position anyway, as she wasn't even supposed to be involved.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I don’t remember any testimony from Other staff saying her offering the cold cot was unusual or even outside of guidelines?

 

[Dotta]

I don’t remember any testimony from Other staff saying her offering the cold cot was unusual or even outside of guidelines?

But the point is to "read the room".

We are humans, not robots.

JMO

 

[marynnu]

Exactly.

And mind the view from her window at home

JMO

Just imagine if you were the person who bought that house from her.