VERDICT WATCH UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #30

[Lucy6226]

Imagine if it's currently at 6:5.....will be a nightmare to get a majority verdict still urgh

 

[marynnu]

Imagine if it's currently at 6:5.....will be a nightmare to get a majority verdict still urgh

It wouldn't be that for every case though. I've never personally felt it would be unanimous either way for every charge. But I think it quite possible for some.

 

[Dotta]

It wouldn't be that for every case though. I've never personally felt it would be unanimous either way for every charge. But I think it quite possible for some.

So,
For some there will be verdicts
and for others hung Jury?
And retrial for some?
Or left unresolved?

How does it really work?

I have no idea as we have different system in my country.
No Jury system.

 

[marynnu]

So,
For some there will be verdicts
and for others hung Jury?
And retrial for some?
Or left unresolved?

How does it really work?

I have no idea as we have different system in my country.
No Jury system.

If there's no verdict for some cases I think it's for the CPS to decide whether to re-try, but not sure. It may be that if she is convicted of others that it's not pursued as she would already have to serve a life sentence anyway, or even a whole life tariff.

 

[Parker Knoll]

Yes it’s up to the CPS. I think they would personally.
They still charged Wayne Cozens with further offences after his WLO even though he’s going nowhere fast. I cannot see them allowing the charges to lie on the file.

 

[Dotta]

If there's no verdict for some cases I think it's for the CPS to decide whether to re-try, but not sure. It may be that if she is convicted of others that it's not pursued as she would already have to serve a life sentence anyway, or even a whole life tariff.

I see.
I just wonder how it is treated legally if some charges are left in limbo.

Oh well...
Too bad.

JMO

 

[marynnu]

Yes it’s up to the CPS. I think they would personally.
They still charged Wayne Cozens with further offences after his WLO even though he’s going nowhere fast. I cannot see them allowing the charges to lie on the file.

That's very true. And of course justice needs to be served for those families too.

 

[Parker Knoll]

The DM are giving a different deliberation time in this article

Judge tells Lucy Letby jurors he will accept majority verdicts

Mr Justice Goss gave the instruction of the Manchester jury of seven women and four men shortly after 3pm today, by which time they had spent 76 hours deliberating.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[marynnu]

Length of Deliberations Predictions

Jul
Mon 10th - day 1 (afternoon only) - 2pm to 4pm minus 5mins = 1h 55m
Tue 11th - day 2 - 4h 20m
Wed 12th - day 3 - 4h 20m
Thu 13th - day 4 - 4h 20m
Fri 14th - day 5 - 4h 20m
Mon 24th - day 6 - 4h 20m
Tue 25th - day 7 - 4h 20m
Wed 26th - day 8 - 4h 15m
Thu 27th - day 9 - 4h 20m
Fri 28th - day 10 - 3h 50m (12pm - 4pm minus 2x 5 min breaks)
Aug
Tue 1st - day 11 - 4h 10m
Wed 2nd - day 12 - 4h 20m
Thu 3rd - day 13 - 4h 10m
Fri 4th - day 14 - 4h 15m
Tue 8th - day 15 - 4h 20m (majority direction given at 3pm)

Running total = 61h 35m


Still in the game -

58h - @Jw192 (backed by @Sarahlou and @Tortoise )
70h - @bobbymkii (backed by @Dotta and @marynnu )
75h - @CS2C (backed by @Kittybunny , @DianaWW , @Diddly1 and @Parker Knoll )
80h - @V347 (backed by @crystalline )

In the bag for Bobbymkii, Dotta & me I think. As long as it's not CS2C, well never hear the end of it.

 

[Dotta]

In the bag for Bobbymkii, Dotta & me I think. As long as it's not CS2C, well never hear the end of it.

Let's dance Amiga!
Together with @bobbymkii

 

[Supernovae]

Just some general information that might be useful:

Crown Court Trial - Verdict — Defence-Barrister.co.uk

What happens when a jury retires to consider the verdict of guilty or not guilty?

www.defence-barrister.co.uk

Notes about voting numbers​

Juries sometimes send the judge a note about their inability to reach a unanimous verdict, or about their voting numbers (i.e. how many wish to find the defendant guilty and how many not guilty). The judge will not inform the prosecution or defence of the content of a note about numbers, but it might prompt the judge to suggest giving a majority direction if the relevant time limit has passed (see more on majority verdicts below).

When can a majority direction be given?​

The Juries Act 1974 requires at least 2 hours to pass between a jury retiring and a majority direction being given, but the convention is to allow at least 2 hours and 10 minutes, to take into account the time it will take any jury to get from the courtroom to the jury room and back.

In practice it is rare for a judge to give a majority direction after such a short period of time.

Much depends on the complexity of the case and the issues involved. In a long and complex case it can be days before a majority direction is given. Often the judge will only give such a direction after discussion with the prosecution and defence dvocates.

Notwithstanding the precise timing of a majority direction, it is extremely important that a jury should never feel under pressure of time to reach a verdict.

Hung Jury - What happens when the jury cannot agree on a verdict?​

If a jury have had a majority direction but are still unable to reach a verdict, they will often send a note to the judge to the effect that they have reached the end of the line.

In such a situation, if the judge feels there is nothing to be gained by continuing, the jury will be discharged. A judge is unable to force the jury to return a verdict.

If a jury cannot agree on a verdict, either unanimously or by a permissible majority, the whole jury will be discharged.

A jury who are unable to agree on a verdict are known as a hung jury. It is often quite obvious when a jury cannot reach a verdict, not only from the time it is taking to hear from them but also from their body language when they are asked to return to the courtroom.

Retrial - What happens after a hung jury is discharged?​

When a hung jury has been discharged, the usual practice is for the defendant to be tried again by a different jury.

The prosecution will usually be given 7 days to notify both the court and the defence if they wish to proceed for a second time.

The reasons for being given this time include the opportunity to gain witness availability and consult with witnesses (who would have to give evidence for a second time) and also to consider if there are any fundamental weaknesses in the case that tend against asking for a retrial; for example, sometimes a prosecution witness whose evidence appeared watertight on paper might have been shown to be unreliable during cross-examination by the defence.

If a jury are unable to agree following a second trial, the convention is for the prosecution not to seek a third trial but to offer no evidence (which results in a Not Guilty verdict). It will only be in exceptional cases that a third trial would be sought.

 

[Dave32]

It is a huge case and virtually impossible to remember everything...if ever there was a case to allow the judges summary this it ...I know its not allowed but it would have been helpful in such a mammoth case

It must be really hard to remember all the evidence from 10 months ago. I'm wondering if there could be some better way of doing trials like this, like maybe considering the charges one at a time and giving a verdict on each before moving on to the next.

 

[iamshadow21]

It must be really hard to remember all the evidence from 10 months ago. I'm wondering if there could be some better way of doing trials like this, like maybe considering the charges one at a time and giving a verdict on each before moving on to the next.

The problem with that approach is it doesn't show the pattern of behaviour and pattern of criminal acts. These cases were tried together because they form a bigger picture. They weren't, if crimes, if guilty, etc, committed in isolation, but overlapping and interlaced with each other. Sometimes, babies went into crisis at the same time, or immediately after each other. Sometimes, the fallout from one case seemed the catalyst for the crisis of another child at a later time. How would individual trials handle this interconnectedness? They couldn't. This was the only way to do it fairly. For both the babies and their families, and LL.

MOO

 

[katydid23]

It must be really hard to remember all the evidence from 10 months ago. I'm wondering if there could be some better way of doing trials like this, like maybe considering the charges one at a time and giving a verdict on each before moving on to the next.

Doing separate mini trials for each case would take years compared to months. So much more expensive and time consuming.

And you lose the big picture, which is putting everything into context. That is the reality of the situation---the big picture. And it would be lost if you tried to separate each case from all the rest.

 

[minusfour]

I must confess to checking for a verdict before I went to work today. Normally I manage to hold off until I have a break at work. It feels like we are holding our breath, for too long, now.

 

[CS2C]

I must confess to checking for a verdict before I went to work today. Normally I manage to hold off until I have a break at work. It feels like we are holding our breath, for too long, now.

You won’t find a verdict yet as it’s only 8am here and the jury haven’t had breakfast in bed yet.

Let’s pray we get some movement today

 

[minusfour]

You won’t find a verdict yet as it’s only 8am here and the jury haven’t had breakfast in bed yet.

Let’s pray we get some movement today

I'm in Australia, looking for the verdict from yesterday. (Last night for us-looked this morning)

On a more interesting note, I met a man yesterday who had worked for some years as a corrections officer in the UK. I did talk his head off/ask him numerous questions/told him about this trial. Poor thing didn't know what had hit him, but he was a good sport about it!

 

[Blondiexoxo]

Will we have verdicts by 4pm today? If we don’t it might suggest there’s more than 1 hold out for some charges.

I feel like possibly the attempted murder charges are where’s there a debate going on. I just hope there’s a voice of reason bringing the discussion back to the similarities and links between cases. Aswell as the judges instructions which IMO are very important and could help make the decision easier especially on the charges where the evidence isn’t as strong.

All MOO

 

[Tortoise]

The DM are giving a different deliberation time in this article

Judge tells Lucy Letby jurors he will accept majority verdicts

Mr Justice Goss gave the instruction of the Manchester jury of seven women and four men shortly after 3pm today, by which time they had spent 76 hours deliberating.

www.dailymail.co.uk

"Mr Justice Goss gave the instruction of the jury of seven women and four men shortly after 3pm today, by which time they had spent 76 hours and four minutes considering their verdicts."

I've got 61h 35m if the jury has been stopping for the lunch hour.

Even if the jury has been working through lunch, I reckon 12 jurors going to the toilet twice a day each would add up to an hour of non-deliberations.

 

[gc105]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1689206914725404672

Please let today be the day!