GUILTY UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 7 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 6 hung re attempted #33

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I disagree. The evidence was there all along. LL was the only person present in that room on every occasion of a baby collapsing.
No, she was not present in the room at the time of every collapse. She was on duty for each one, but not always present in the room.

The consultants had NO EVIDENCE that the police would have been able to use at that time. They needed the hospital's support if they wanted police to investigate. The police would not have the medical knowledge and would have needed support from the hospital to figure things out.
 
If they had gone to the police immediately then babies lives could very well have been saved.
Incorrect. They had ZERO evidence for the police to arrest anyone.

The management was to blame for the babies not being saved in time. They should have taken her off the unit sooner, etc. And started a real investigation.
 
None of us can know for sure. Even the jury were divided, but she was convicted, so for the present she is guilty.
The jury was not that divided. They came to GUILTY verdicts on all of the murder charges.

Only some of the attempted murders were not fully resolved. Those were much more difficult because of their way the law is written. IMO
 
BTW, does anybody know which arrest it was where her mother is alleged to have said "I did it, take me instead"?


Her mother said that when Lucy was being arrested in 2018



where only child Letby was arrested for the final time in 2018, as her distraught mother wailed at the officers: 'I did it, take me instead!' in a desperate bid to protect her daughter.



 
Her mother said that when Lucy was being arrested in 2018



where only child Letby was arrested for the final time in 2018, as her distraught mother wailed at the officers: 'I did it, take me instead!' in a desperate bid to protect her daughter.



I'm sure that this has been discussed before but wouldn't it have been more natural for her mum to shout that her daughter was innocent. This suggests that her mum knew or suspected that LL was guilty.
 
Remember

"An apple a day, keeps the doctor away" :D
"And an onion a day keeps everybody away!"
I also think she is even more prolific than suspected. What I want to know is when/how did it all start? We know two babies she worked with died at Liverpool Women's Hospital, but we don't know if the deaths were suspicious. You'd normally expect to see a ramp up in behaviour before committing full-blown murder, but that doesn't always follow. I wonder if by 2015 her compulsion to harm/kill + her confidence after getting away with it for a long time led to her behaving in an increasingly reckless manner.
I would like to know how old she was when she declared she wanted to be a nurse and look after babies. I would date her murderous urges back to at least then.
 
"Analysis of Countess of Chester NHS Foundation Trust's supplier payment data has uncovered how the health body paid tens of thousands to a PR firm to consult on how to handle the media following the fallout of the child serial killer case."

 
It is simply mindblowing that ONE person could cause such havoc and heartbreak o_O

Broken trust of public.

Not to mention literally millions of pounds spent and still to be spent on this case.

And to think that one right diagnosis of her mental state could prevent all this destruction.

JMO
 
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"Analysis of Countess of Chester NHS Foundation Trust's supplier payment data has uncovered how the health body paid tens of thousands to a PR firm to consult on how to handle the media following the fallout of the child serial killer case."


A spokesperson for Lodestone said its work was "focused on supporting the new management of the Trust as they sought to clean up the tragic mess that had been left to them by their predecessors."


"Clean up the tragic mess"? Jesus, that's an embarrassingly poor choice of words for a PR company to use!!
 
And we know exactly when this falls in the run of things.

Her son was born, weighing just 3lbs 2oz, nine weeks early by emergency C-section at the Countess of Chester Hospital in February 2016, nine months into Letby's killing spree. She was at his birth – her third night shift in a run of four.

The previous night she allegedly tried to murder a baby girl by tampering with her breathing tube. The jury failed to reach a verdict in her case.

Given the date, there's no doubt which child they're talking about. It's Child K.


Count 14 - attempted murder of Child K, a baby girl, on February 17, 2016: NO VERDICT

After Child K, the next child to have a charge presented to the court was Child L, who was attacked on the 9th April.

This baby fits into that gap. He went home at the end of March.

At the end of March 2016, after around five weeks on the unit, their son was well enough to be discharged. Shortly afterwards Letby asked to be friends with the mother on Facebook.

MOO
Would this be the baby that someone had to keep telling LL to get out and get back to her room? I remember that but can't remember the quote about it or who or what etc. MOO
 
JMO - BPD, a complex condition, is between mistrust of others and horrible self-esteem. There are some interesting studies indicating BPD lying in the intersection of three other well-known conditions. Maybe in five years we shall have a better understanding of what it is.

But my inner image of an ideal borderline girl would be not a “difficult” person, far from it. On the contrary, she is very nice, very polite, exceptionally attractive if on the slim side, always perfectly dressed and groomed, at this, she is also very smart and is “a helper”. She is often a loner in the college but gets perfect grades…and suddenly she falls apart and leaves when there is just one year left to graduate. And then she’d transfer and do great, and then fall apart several months shy of graduating again. This constant self-sabotaging on the verge of success is very common for BPD, IMHO. Either they get tired of pretending to be perfect, or this perfection is a shield, covering the fear of someone seeing “the real her”, or maybe success would put them right into the limelight and they don’t enjoy it.

This is why, if we are thinking Lucy and BPD, Münchausen syndrome is a little bit off that track. Münchausen syndrome would be probably more typical for histrionic personality disorder, another cluster B trait. Histrionics love attention and love to be in the center of attention. Borderlines, not quite.

I don’t quite know where I am driving at… some intuitive path about Lucy who I think is borderline. Very secretive. Prone to splitting. Her note was an example of splitting too. But maybe “splitting” refers not only to the external world, that’s either “all good” or “all bad”. Maybe it could be applicable to self-perception. Maybe the more she tried to look “nice and kind” in the eyes of everyone else, the more she had to balance it by “being horrible”? And when doctor A appeared, she had to try harder to be the best…and it pushed her more to be “horrible and murderous” when no one saw her”?

ETA: This phrase “I killed them on purpose because I am not good enough to care for them” is the example of splitting IMHO. The better she looks in the eyes of the world (and she does, she is a band 5 NICU nurse, the ultimate helper, plus the face of the unit in 2012, and the parents are thankful, too), the harder to keep the facade, and then she secretly does something horrible to prove to herself that she is not “good enough”. And then she can keep up with being “Mrs. Perfection”.

Does anyone see it this way?

Not sure about the diagnoses, apparently some of these disorders are less understood than others & I wouldn't have a clue about the comorbidity rates but re your point about it being for Dr A, does anybody recall when Dr A first started working at the NNU?

Re your image of how the classic 'BPD girl' presents, when I was following the Lori Vallow trial, I heard a lot of commentary from American penal experts and I do recall at least one of them suggesting that US women's prisons were disproportionately full of women with undiagnosed BPD. I can't recall the % given but it was high.
Being in the UK, it's hard for me to comment on your description in paragraph 2 as representative of big chunk of US female prison pop.

Also, re the last para and the Band 5.....

I didn't appreciate the point until another WS-er pointed it out, Band 5 is starting band for newly qual nurse. ( The Ws-er may be from a nursing background, I know zero about the grades and I just believed LL's hype about being Band 5 and mistakenly thought it was a high grade)
Hopefully that WS-er ( forgotten name, sorry) will pop back in to add some more info about why she's ' still only band 5' four years after grad. Do they think there was any resentment there or conversely, expect her want to stay at Countess rather than seek higher grade & promotion beyond Countess NNU?


@Dotta Saves me creating a new post. On the PR company, the hospital trust involved in the BAllitt scandal did exactly the same thing. Journalists interviewed in that first BBC programme I mentioned, complained that the trust shut down legit queries, Dept of Health ( Government) assisted them by diverting all press queries via a Westminster-based PR agency

@Kemug Good question. Times has this
'
Jade Thomas, 33, a friend from Aylestone who likened her to Mary Poppins, said Letby’s decision to become a nurse came as no surprise because from her mid-teens she would often talk about children’s health and development.
“She was definitely focused and career-driven from even such a young age'

( The Mary Poppins thing might be due to the girlhood habit we were told of - carrying almost a first aid kit in her rucksack)
 
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Incorrect. They had ZERO evidence for the police to arrest anyone.

The management was to blame for the babies not being saved in time. They should have taken her off the unit sooner, etc. And started a real investigation.

The hospital was supposed to have launched an investigation in June 2015, but for some reason, that never happened. The proposed investigation was referred to in text messages between LL and a colleague.
 
It is simply mindblowing that ONE person could cause such havoc and heartbreak o_O

Broken trust of public.

Not to mention literally millions of pounds spent and still to be spent on this case.

And to think that one right diagnosis of her mental state could prevent all this destruction.

JMO

Am just reading your link now.

A WS-er who is local to Chester, posted that Countess were currently running some kind of comments collection at the hospital . IIRC it was on the grounds of the hospital, outside. Asking the public to complete comments cards on how satisfied they were with Countess.
( Forgotten the WS-ers name so cannot find the exact details now or I'd bump their old post)

your link says
'
She added that they “expect there will be intense media attention on the Trust" and "extensive planning has been undertaken since charges were placed in November 2020, to prepare the Trust ahead of the start of the trial." Board papers from this year also reveal the hospital had a 'communication plan’ related to the conclusion of the serial killer’s court hearing.
It also held a 'media preparedness session' on March 18 "to ensure the Board is briefed on what to expect and how the Trust will approach the end of the trial
.'

cynical aside - those comments will be cherry-picked and then quoted in an expensively commissioned progress report.
 
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