UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 7 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 6 hung re attempted #34

[Parker Knoll]

I was thinking about that @Tortoise
It’s a tricky one if they decide to appeal against conviction and sentence.

 

[Tortoise]

I was thinking about that @Tortoise
It’s a tricky one if they decide to appeal against conviction and sentence.

Even trickier if the prosecution goes for a retrial on the outstanding charges while there is (potentially) an appeal in the works.

 

[kittythehare]

Even trickier if the prosecution goes for a retrial on the outstanding charges while there is (potentially) an appeal in the works.

Oh God..

 

[marynnu]

Are families allowed to bring older siblings into the unit?

Normally yes.

 

[Parker Knoll]

Exactly @Tortoise, they can ask for extra time which under the circumstances I cannot see it being refused but it’s a headache.
I can’t see the prosecution asking for a retrial and I (think) they are out of time now in any event. As sad as it is for the parents with no verdict I cannot see any mileage in trying her again. I think they will just go again with her on fresh charges.
JMO

 

[kittythehare]

Exactly @Tortoise, they can ask for extra time which under the circumstances I cannot see it being refused but it’s a headache.
I can’t see the prosecution asking for a retrial and I (think) they are out of time now in any event. As sad as it is for the parents with no verdict I cannot see any mileage in trying her again. I think they will just go again with her on fresh charges.
JMO

It is utterly devastating for the parents.
What do they need for the purposes of a retrial/
do they need new evidence or is it a matter of resubmitting previously withheld evidence that was not accepted the first time round?
They cannot leave them in limbo, never knowing...

 

[Tortoise]

Exactly @Tortoise, they can ask for extra time which under the circumstances I cannot see it being refused but it’s a headache.
I can’t see the prosecution asking for a retrial and I (think) they are out of time now in any event. As sad as it is for the parents with no verdict I cannot see any mileage in trying her again. I think they will just go again with her on fresh charges.
JMO

They've got 28 days from 18th August to decide on a retrial.

Nicholas Johnson KC, prosecuting, asked the court for 28 days to consider whether a retrial would be sought for the remaining six counts of attempted murder.

Nurse Lucy Letby to be sentenced for murdering seven babies

 

[katydid23]

I was thinking about that @Tortoise
It’s a tricky one if they decide to appeal against conviction and sentence.

I am sure she will appeal. Virtually every one does when given a very long sentence. What is there to lose at that point?

 

[Parker Knoll]

They've got 28 days from 18th August to decide on a retrial.

Nicholas Johnson KC, prosecuting, asked the court for 28 days to consider whether a retrial would be sought for the remaining six counts of attempted murder.

Nurse Lucy Letby to be sentenced for murdering seven babies

I hadn’t seen that @Tortoise thanks, let’s see what happens in the next week or so.
She will definitely appeal without a shadow of a doubt.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I am sure she will appeal. Virtually every one does when given a very long sentence. What is there to lose at that point?

Credibility?

 

[kittythehare]

Credibility?

What credibility?

 

[JosieJo]

From the little we heard I can imagine her parents working frantically for an appeal

 

[cottonweaver]

From the little we heard I can imagine her parents working frantically for an appeal

Very possibly but I think a decision to refuse leave to appeal can also be expedited

 

[LadyL]

These babies where LL was asked to be a godmother - that would have given her future access to the little ones. Scary.

did she ask or was it offered?
I haven't read that anywhere

 

[katydid23]

Credibility?

You can't lose what you've already lost?

 

[Eloise]

did she ask or was it offered?
I haven't read that anywhere

It was on an episode of the podcast where they interview a family whose baby wasn't one of the charges. IIRC they just said they considered offering, I don't think they actually did. It's the family in this article

 

[esther43]

I don’t actually think the cps is looking to convict her fo4 any other deaths in 2015/16. They would have done it already.

think That means there are six deaths that she isn’t thought to have been involved with.

I think Dr Gibbs said that of the remaining six deaths there was at least one that was not thought to be on LL. So that leaves at least 5 that she remains potentially suspected for. Likely she wasn't charged with them due to a lack of evidence.

 

[esther43]

I was thinking last night as I fell asleep about the cases that were returned no verdict, and I'm less sure that they'll be retried. I think that in some of them, the sticking point for the jury may have been that they were cases where the children unquestionably received substandard care, and they perhaps weren't able to decide that it was beyond reasonable doubt that Letby was wholly responsible - or not - for their collapse. That doesn't mean another jury would have the same problem, but it will be something the CPS will have to weigh up.

Child H had the chest drains, the butterfly needles of which may have punctured her lung.
Child J had had NEC, and had a stoma, which the COCH staff seemed unfamiliar with. This child was once left by staff dirty with faeces, wrapped in a towel, which I think we would all agree is completely unacceptable in any childcare setting, let alone a neonatal ward where things are meant to be kept sterile and hygienic.
Child K was extremely premature, of a size and gestational age not usually cared for at COCH.

The exception would be Child Q, who was ventilated but didn't, from what I can tell, have anything unusual or substandard going on.

And the exception on the side of verdicts would be Child D, who unquestionably received substandard care, but a majority verdict was found of guilty for the charge related to her.

But yeah, tl;dr, I want the families to have a definitive, legal ruling rather than the limbo of no verdict, but I'm less sure about how likely a retrial will be.

MOO

I agree with your reasoning here. In the pneumo baby, there was conflicting evidence between Dr Jaraym and Dr Bohin. Dr Jaraym was sure that his procedure was effective and non harmful, whilst bohen stated that the chest drain management needed looking into.
Very difficult for the jury to make that call I suppose, can see why they may not feel qualified. Personally I found it very suspicious that LL went to the matron and asked not to look after this pneumo baby without support as she felt 'unqualified'
Similarly with the stoma baby, this time LL thought that the nursery nurse was not qualified. It's her 'competency concerns' that formed part of a predictable pattern.
I wonder if it's true that she kept the handover notes as trophy's. My instinct told they were more kept for planning.
Everything that LL mentioned in her defence, staffing issues, sub optimal care, entirely possible those handover notes helped her to see where the opportunities were and this aided planning. Though I must admit, I don't know specifically what detail was on each handover note.

 

[esther43]

Why are the doctors called 'consultants'? A consultant is usually an expert brought into or 'consulted' with on a special project. But these 'consultants' just seem like normal doctors?

As Mary says, they are the top tier drs in their specialisms, however they also play a significant role in the follow up and coordination of the child's need beyond discharge, via their clinics.
All babies born below 30 weeks should have continued support in clinics for up to two years those born with complex needs would also be immediately eligible for this support without GP referral. As I understand it, these clinics would still continue following downgrade as they are based on 'area of locality' rather than level 1/2/3

 

[cottonweaver]

Personally I found it very suspicious that LL went to the matron and asked not to look after this pneumo baby without support as she felt 'unqualified'
Similarly with the stoma baby, this time LL thought that the nursery nurse was not qualified. It's her 'competency concerns' that formed part of a predictable pattern.

snipped just to focus on those two points. I didn't realise that she'd, in advance, gone to the matron in that baby's case. ( And I haven't read matron's testimony either. Anyway...so very devious. Me side-eying the 'Not good enough' theme again.)

Re stoma, I did come across this re Baby J's stoma care. ( from NJ's cross)

"Hmm don't know when to stop do they' Letby wrote.

'She tells the court: "Sometimes I felt that nursery nurses would undertake roles they were not experienced enough in doing."

A second message from Letby reads: 'It is shocking really that they are willing to take the responsibility for things that they have no training or experience etc on. Don't think they appreciate the potential difficulties.'

The court is then shown guidelines for stoma care that says they "do not require either Intensive or High Dependency care".

Mr Johnson says Letby is trying to create the impression: "The care provided to Child J was in 'some way deficient'.

"I don't think she had a high standard of care," Letby says.'

Lucy Letby trial: Facebook searches of nurse accused of murdering babies read out in court

Lucy Letby, a former neonatal nurse, has been back in court for another day of cross-examination by the prosecution on Friday. She is accused of the murder of seven babies and the attempted murder of 10 others, and denies all the charges.

news.sky.com

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