UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 7 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 6 hung re attempted #34

[esther43]

I have not read everything about this case so apologies if I am missing some important factors. I find it odd that she just started killing when she was fully trained- so many other types of killers mistreat animals or do other destructive acts early on. I also keep thinking that as with fire starters, she some how wanted to threaten lives to see if she could save them but the whole "game" was a death spiral. IMO.

Is there any evidence that she interfered with some babies and they survived? Or was there only research into the deaths?

I am also curious if there was counseling or some kind of procedure for staff after a death. You know how they remove LE from regular duty right after a shooting? Knowing that there will be trauma. Is there any hospital procedure like that? It seems that she was just doing more shifts.

Think it's likely that there were many more cases before hand. I personally found Dr Gibbs description of the death toll usually averaging between 2-4 per year a little high for a level 2 of that size. I work with a level 2 that is double the size and tbh 4 deaths per year would definitely be a bad year, for babies that actually made it to NNU.
Regards the animals, they weren't 'out of the picture' as LL scrawled ramblings about her deceased pets whilst reflecting on the babies who were killed.
It seems it wasn't 'just' a 12 month killing spree, hence they are now investigating 4000 babies that LL cared for. I would agree that to wake up one days and go on a killing spree would be odd.
In relation to the shift patterns and LL doing extra. It seems she was not the only one..

Myers then asked: “Had the unit been as busy as this in all the years you worked there?"

Letby said: “No. It was increasingly busy at this period. A lot of staff were drained physically and emotionally. The unit was very busy, lots of people were doing additional shifts and changing shifts at the last minute and it did start to have an effect on everybody."

 

[Sweeper2000]

Think it's likely that there were many more cases before hand. I personally found Dr Gibbs description of the death toll usually averaging between 2-4 per year a little high for a level 2 of that size. I work with a level 2 that is double the size and tbh 4 deaths per year would definitely be a bad year, for babies that actually made it to NNU.
Regards the animals, they weren't 'out of the picture' as LL scrawled ramblings about her deceased pets whilst reflecting on the babies who were killed.
It seems it wasn't 'just' a 12 month killing spree, hence they are now investigating 4000 babies that LL cared for. I would agree that to wake up one days and go on a killing spree would be odd.
In relation to the shift patterns and LL doing extra. It seems she was not the only one..

Myers then asked: “Had the unit been as busy as this in all the years you worked there?"

Letby said: “No. It was increasingly busy at this period. A lot of staff were drained physically and emotionally. The unit was very busy, lots of people were doing additional shifts and changing shifts at the last minute and it did start to have an effect on everybody."

i don’t know for sure but I think I r entire Career she would have cared for about 4K babes. So thy are checking her entire career.

 

[Dotta]

i don’t know for sure but I think I r entire Career she would have cared for about 4K babes. So thy are checking her entire career.

Good!
As they should!

 

[esther43]

[/QUOTE]

i don’t know for sure but I think I r entire Career she would have cared for about 4K babes. So thy are checking her entire career.

Sweeper you have failed the 'i read the whole post' test?

 

[marynnu]

i don’t know for sure but I think I r entire Career she would have cared for about 4K babes. So thy are checking her entire career.

I don't think that's possible. Chester had maybe 400 admissions a year? And Liverpool 1,000, but she was only there a few months as a student.

 

[esther43]

I didn't realise that she'd, in advance, gone to the matron in that baby's case.

Thanks for the link, yes it seems that it was an agreed action for her to move to to days due to Letby's 'staffing concerns'

"Mr Myers asks about the 2016 reallocation to day shifts, following a number of deaths on the neonatal unit.

Ms Powell said the move to the day shift was to give Letby "more support" in staffing numbers, and was not "a punishment".

Nicholas Johnson KC, for the prosecution, rises to ask a couple of questions.

He asks if Letby made mistakes.

Ms Powell said Letby made mistakes, as everyone did, but was "good at reporting mistakes", and would report mistakes that other nurse practitioners or medical staff had made, regardless of seniority.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, April 27

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Sweeper2000]

I don't think that's possible. Chester had maybe 400 admissions a year? And Liverpool 1,000, but she was only there a few months as a student.

Are you sure on that? I thought units like that were looking after 3.5 k births a year.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Sweeper you have failed the 'i read the whole post' test?
[/QUOTE]
I didn’t I failed the “read the whole post and actually take it in test“ lol

eta jus realised its worse.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I don't think that's possible. Chester had maybe 400 admissions a year? And Liverpool 1,000, but she was only there a few months as a student.

Seems to be about 2.5 k per year according to this report.

“The hospital provides midwifery and consultant led maternity care across 52 maternity beds. Between July 2020 and June 2021 there were 2,295 babies birthed under the care of this service.”

https://www.cqc.org.uk/location/RJR05/inspection-summaryhttps://www.cqc.org.uk/location/RJR05/inspection-summaryhttps://www.cqc.org.uk/location/RJR05/inspection-summary

 

[cottonweaver]

Thanks for the link, yes it seems that it was an agreed action for her to move to to days due to Letby's 'staffing concerns'

"Mr Myers asks about the 2016 reallocation to day shifts, following a number of deaths on the neonatal unit.

Ms Powell said the move to the day shift was to give Letby "more support" in staffing numbers, and was not "a punishment".

Nicholas Johnson KC, for the prosecution, rises to ask a couple of questions.

He asks if Letby made mistakes.

Ms Powell said Letby made mistakes, as everyone did, but was "good at reporting mistakes", and would report mistakes that other nurse practitioners or medical staff had made, regardless of seniority.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, April 27

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Thanks.
Cause Eirian ( sp?) was listed in press as NN ward manager, I didn't know if that was interchangeable w matron. I had read that one before cause it's prominent on tat wiki.
It struck me when I read it that EP was one of those previously named by Brearey, as resistant
PS Do you know roughly what payscale that would be for that role in L2 like CoC?

 

[Sweeper2000]

I don't think that's possible. Chester had maybe 400 admissions a year? And Liverpool 1,000, but she was only there a few months as a student.

Or maybe that’s birth without NNU care? So out of 2.5 k births a proportion then go onto NNU care.

 

[esther43]

Thanks.
Cause Eirian ( sp?) was listed in press as NN ward manager, I didn't know if that was interchangeable w matron. I had read that one before cause it's prominent on tat wiki.
It struck me when I read it that EP was one of those previously named by Brearey, as resistant
PS Do you know roughly what payscale that would be for that role in L2 like CoC?

I think matron/clinical lead/ nurse manager are all interchangable terms depending on the Trust.
I'd say band 7 for matron, based on my area. We have 2 band 7 matrons that just oversee the neonatal unit. But I know @marynnu had a different experience, with several nurses in the same unit making it up to band 7.
Payscale for this is between 45-50k per year.
If she was a band 8a (for our region this would normally involve overseeing Paeds too) it starts at 48K.
I suspect Eraine was a band 7, Alison and Karen were band 8's, leading the division and directing nurse activity, rather than managing it.
Once you get into the higher bands you are looking at earning up to 100k per year, based on responsibilities and experience.

 

[Dotta]

Once you get into the higher bands you are looking at earning up to 100k per year, based on responsibilities and experience.

What is the use of all these "experience and responsibilites" when a serial killer was murdering patients right under their noses??

JMO

 

[marynnu]

Thanks.
Cause Eirian ( sp?) was listed in press as NN ward manager, I didn't know if that was interchangeable w matron. I had read that one before cause it's prominent on tat wiki.
It struck me when I read it that EP was one of those previously named by Brearey, as resistant
PS Do you know roughly what payscale that would be for that role in L2 like CoC?

If I had to guess I'd say Band 8. But this was for the manager where I worked, and we had a lot of Band 7s (about 10-12) which reflected the level of work we did. I haven't heard any mention of Band 7 at CoC, so she might well have been that.

 

[marynnu]

Or maybe that’s birth without NNU care? So out of 2.5 k births a proportion then go onto NNU care.

Exactly this.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Exactly this.

You know what Mary following this case has been an education and an experience. One thing I’ve gained though is a partial understanding of how a NNU works and things you can expect when it comes to having a baby. As someone who hopefully will start a family in the next few years These things are good to know. I was looking at the thought that if 400 babies out of 2.5 k required more treatment after birth then the vast majority go to hospital and then shortly after leave. This makes me think that the majority of babies are born are good and are not necessarily fragile. Is that the case of things?

 

[marynnu]

This makes me think that the majority of babies are born are good and are not necessarily fragile.

100%! Unless you're a nurse, doctor or midwife which of course complicates things.
You could probably get a job on an NNU knowing what you know.

 

[Dotta]

Lucy Letby hospital blasted for failing mothers FOUR YEARS after nurse arrested

The Care Quality Commission criticised Countess of Chester Hospital over staff shortages and problems with patient records, and the trust was served with two warning notices

www.mirror.co.uk

 

[cottonweaver]

Lucy Letby hospital blasted for failing mothers FOUR YEARS after nurse arrested

The Care Quality Commission criticised Countess of Chester Hospital over staff shortages and problems with patient records, and the trust was served with two warning notices

www.mirror.co.uk

think i read that earlier last week - 2022 cqc report in chester newspaper ( I couldn't help thinking that it was so critical compared to their earlier reports on CoC. cqc knew that when they wrote this report that LL's trial would create a scandal)


ETA
same link as posted before

All inspections: The Countess of Chester Hospital - Care Quality Commission

www.cqc.org.uk

Forgot to ask this Q. Why does LL feel need to use a code word for the word quiet? Or is it just a nothingburger & not taboo? ( Aug 2015, couple days before attacks twins E & F)

On the night shift from 1 to 2 August 2015, Letby was the designated nurse for Child F.

Letby sent a message to one of her friends complaining about the shift at 10.35pm.

"Yeah it's fine bit too q word really," she wrote.
Letby says this is a reference to it being quiet.

"Sometimes the shifts, they can be long nights if you haven't got as many babies on the unit," she tells the court.

"Do you enjoy it when it [is] busy?" Nick Johnson, for the prosecution, asks her.

"I enjoy when it [is] busy, yes," Letby says.

Lucy Letby trial: Facebook searches of nurse accused of murdering babies read out in court

Lucy Letby, a former neonatal nurse, has been back in court for another day of cross-examination by the prosecution on Friday. She is accused of the murder of seven babies and the attempted murder of 10 others, and denies all the charges.

news.sky.com

She clarifies she "enjoyed being busy when it was managed".

 

[esther43]

What is the use of all these "experience and responsibilites" when a serial killer was murdering patients right under their noses??

JMO

Safety should be the number one priority but increasingly band 8's spend more time working on the business side of things. Some band 8's are not even clinically trained, they come from business and strategic backgrounds.
The underpinning issue is the lack of funding that all NHS trusts face and the competition between Trusts for funding. As you can see from the significant pay jumps as well, a staff members promotional opportunities will be a big factor in all this.
Now imagine you had a CEO backing you, telling you there's no safety issue and you have doubts too and the next banding up is going to give you an extra 10K a year. ....
That is where integrity comes into it. Some people have it, some people don't and it really does depend on the role model you have above you imo.