GUILTY UK - Paige Doherty, 15, Clydebank, 19 March 2016

[mrazda71]

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??????

 

[Alyce]

It also makes me wonder even more where it happened, as that much blood loss would be hard to hide w/ out somebody noticing. Especially in a public place (deli) or at home w/ a family present (or returning shortly).

ETA- that also makes me think premeditated...

Yes me too, re the where did it happen.

The timings at the Deli are tight - 8.20 to 8.30 or 8.35am is a fairly short time to
have an argument ? or some form of disagreement
commit a violent murder
clean up blood

 

[Really?]

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Welcome rach......:happydance:

 

[ColourPurple]

Does that mean what I think it means? :/

There's a bit more info about what sharp force injuries on this link below. I hadn't heard it termed like that before so looked it up. Can't get my head around a grown man doing something so violently brutal to anyone let alone a tiny thing like Paige. She was only 4 foot 8 tall, FGS! How does a seemingly normal father of young girls himself do such a thing? And then to go back to work like nothing happened, to dare to ask Paige's grandfather how he was. I feel such anger right now.

Sharp force injuries
=========================================================================
● Injury caused by sharp or pointed weapons
● Differentiated from lacerations by the absence of tissue bridging within the wound


Stab wound: injury from sharp weapon that is deeper than it is wide
● Common weapons include knife, ice pick, scissors, fork
● Stab wound on the skin should be examined to determine if it has sharp or blunt margins; this can be used to determine if the weapon had a single edged or double-edged blade
● Weapons such as a screwdriver, fork or serrated knife can leave distinctive skin patterns that can be matched to the weapon
● Depth of penetration of the wound does not directly correlate with the length of the weapon, as it can be longer, shorter, or equal to the weapon length depending upon the amount of force applied and the location on the body
● Likewise, the length of the wound on the skin may be longer, shorter or equal to the weapon's for the same reasons
● The guard of the knife may produce a patterned abrasion if it is stabbed with significant force into the skin; this can aid in identifying the weapon
● If the weapon comes into contact with bone, the tip may break off and remain in the body; this can be used to identify the weapon
● Suicidal stab wounds may show hesitation marks; i.e. multiple superficial stab wounds surrounding the final, fatal wound
● Defense stab wounds can be found on the hands and extensor surfaces of the arms in homicidal stabbings


Incised wound: sharp force injury that is longer (as measured on the skin) than it is deep
● Usually not fatal, except when they occur over major arteries (i.e. on the neck/arms)
● As with stab wounds, suicidal incised wounds may be associated with hesitation marks; these marks do not rule out homicide
● Defensive incised wounds occur on the hands and extensor surfaces of the arms in homicides


Chop wound: due to a heavy weapon that has a sharp edge, i.e. machete, axe, boat propeller
● Commonly produces an incised wound associated with a cut into the underlying bone
● Dull chop weapons, such as a shovel, produces more crush injury than sharp force injury

http://www.pathologyoutlines.com/topic/forensicsbluntforce.html

 

[ColourPurple]

Thanks for the welcome been here a few days now its megga addictive.

Was it possible that she could of had any sharp objects as shes was supposed to be going to a friends after work to do her nails?

I saw that two cars in the same area where also set on fire days after JL was arrested was this anything to do with this case as threats have been made against the family.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-35903992

Another thing that confuses me is that both JL and his wife own the deli, Does she watch the shop while JL does the deliveries or does the shop close everytime a delivery is phoned? Just seems like it would be impossible for one person to run alone.

https://www.endole.co.uk/company/SC444108/delicious-deli-clydebank-limited?page=people

Deliveries are from 10-2 and he was advertising for part time weekend staff before Xmas, so I assume there's a 2nd person who helps out from 10-2 to so that one can go off to do deliveries.

 

[ColourPurple]

Yes me too, re the where did it happen.

The timings at the Deli are tight - 8.20 to 8.30 or 8.35am is a fairly short time to
have an argument ? or some form of disagreement
commit a violent murder
clean up blood

Looking more like he might have followed her in his car then I guess, though where ever it happened it would have left a lot of blood to clean up before anyone else saw... in the deli, in a car or in a house .The only place that wouldn't need cleaning up would be if it happened outside like`in woodland but then I'd be surprised that her body wasn't discovered much sooner by dogs/dog walkers if that were the case.

With that kind of injury surely he'd have been covered in blood too? Possibly needed a change of clothes?

Did we ever work out what that tiny picture was off on one of the tweets or news stories? It was of a police or forensics person carrying a large long item. I thought at the time maybe it was a rolled up forensics tent used to cover a crime scene areas, but maybe it was a rug or carpet ?

 

[rach7326]

Sorry I leant on my phone and somehow sent them didn't know how to delete. Sorry guys!


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[Steleheart]

Paige Doherty's death certificate has revealed only one primary cause of death, listed as sharp force wounds to her neck.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/paige-doherty-murder-tragic-teen-7687585

Does that mean what I think it means? :/

There's a bit more info about what sharp force injuries on this link below. I hadn't heard it termed like that before so looked it up. Can't get my head around a grown man doing something so violently brutal to anyone let alone a tiny thing like Paige. She was only 4 foot 8 tall, FGS! How does a seemingly normal father of young girls himself do such a thing? And then to go back to work like nothing happened, to dare to ask Paige's grandfather how he was. I feel such anger right now.




http://www.pathologyoutlines.com/topic/forensicsbluntforce.html

*GRAPHIC*
So given the definition of sharp force vs. blunt force, and that most of the stories refer to stab wounds (plural) - "injury from sharp weapon that is deeper than it is wide", It's not slashing as that would be incised - longer than deep. IMO it would be pushing, penetrating as opposed to slicing, chopping. Plural 'wounds' can mean repeated attempts, not necessarily premeditated or purposeful but possibly passion, anger, panic etc.
As Primary Cause of Death it means not necessarily the Manner of Death which could also include less successful attempts like choking, beating etc. COD and MOD are not one and the same, IMO.
The time line makes it all seem very fast and the place of disposal raises very big questions regarding direction of travel - He was heading back toward the shop before he stopped and put her there. On that side of the road he could only be travelling toward, not away from the shops. In broad daylight?


MOO

 

[ColourPurple]

*GRAPHIC*
So given the definition of sharp force vs. blunt force, and that most of the stories refer to stab wounds (plural) - "injury from sharp weapon that is deeper than it is wide", It's not slashing as that would be incised - longer than deep. IMO it would be pushing, penetrating as opposed to slicing, chopping. Plural 'wounds' can mean repeated attempts, not necessarily premeditated or purposeful but possibly passion, anger, panic etc.
As Primary Cause of Death it means not necessarily the Manner of Death which could also include less successful attempts like choking, beating etc. COD and MOD are not one and the same, IMO.
The time line makes it all seem very fast and the place of disposal raises very big questions regarding direction of travel - He was heading back toward the shop before he stopped and put her there. On that side of the road he could only be travelling toward, not away from the shops. In broad daylight?


MOO

I think up until now it was reported that Paige was "believed to have been stabbed" but officially the cause of death is now listed under the broader term of "sharp force injuries to her neck" so it could be stabbing, slashing or chopping. Unless it happened in the deli it looks like this was pre meditated in as much as he must have taken a weapon with him. Had it happened in the deli then it might be down to something happening and him reaching for the nearest thing, which happened to be a knife. I agree the timeline makes it all appear to be fast but the fact that Paige wasn't found till the Monday lunchtime makes me wonder if she was hidden somewhere else at first then possibly left overnight Sunday/Monday.

 

[Steleheart]

I think up until now it was reported that Paige was "believed to have been stabbed" but officially the cause of death is now listed under the broader term of "sharp force injuries to her neck" so it could be stabbing, slashing or chopping. Unless it happened in the deli it looks like this was pre meditated in as much as he must have taken a weapon with him. Had it happened in the deli then it might be down to something happening and him reaching for the nearest thing, which happened to be a knife. I agree the timeline makes it all appear to be fast but the fact that Paige wasn't found till the Monday lunchtime makes me wonder if she was hidden somewhere else at first then possibly left overnight Sunday/Monday.

According to the definition posted upthread, under "sharp force injuries", slashing and chopping are different than stabling and stabbing is what has been reported. Sure we can speculate that the reports are incorrect and the injuries may be slashing, but why. Why speculate that the reports are not correct? Even if it happened inside why can that not be premeditated? It is pretty clear from the reports that outside video will show if they left together or if he left alone. That is all that the reports have said.

I went with the reports of stabbing - sharp force injuries. With the timeline, he either did it all very quickly or he did some of it later. In my opinion, being found Monday is not a lot of time to indicate that he waited to drop her there for a couple days. It was the side of the road where there isn't really a lot of space for people to stop unless you are doing a walk/ ride/ run along the walkway as is the situation under which she was spotted. By the pictures she wasn't that far from the walk. There are evidence tags very close to the pavement.

IMO I don't think it was premed. I think It was panic. I think, with the tents and all that his shop, car, clothes, were a plethora of evidence.

MOO

 

[ColourPurple]

According to the definition posted upthread, under "sharp force injuries", slashing and chopping are different than stabling and stabbing is what has been reported. Sure we can speculate that the reports are incorrect and the injuries may be slashing, but why. Why speculate that the reports are not correct? Even if it happened inside why can that not be premeditated? It is pretty clear from the reports that outside video will show if they left together or if he left alone. That is all that the reports have said.

I went with the reports of stabbing - sharp force injuries. With the timeline, he either did it all very quickly or he did some of it later. In my opinion, being found Monday is not a lot of time to indicate that he waited to drop her there for a couple days. It was the side of the road where there isn't really a lot of space for people to stop unless you are doing a walk/ ride/ run along the walkway as is the situation under which she was spotted. By the pictures she wasn't that far from the walk. There are evidence tags very close to the pavement.

IMO I don't think it was premed. I think It was panic. I think, with the tents and all that his shop, car, clothes, were a plethora of evidence.

MOO

I was just pointing out for accuracy that the confirmed official cause of death has been given as "sharp force injuries" which includes stabbing but also includes other injuries such as slashing or chopping. Also I didn't mean it couldn't be premeditated if it was in the deli, I meant that if it did happen in the deli there is the option that it wasn't premeditated as well as the option that it was. Whereas if it happened outdoors he had made a conscious decision to take a weapon out with him which points towards premeditation.

Where Paige was found was around a mile from where she was last seen and was apparently somewhere that local teens would hang out at night, so it seems unusual that they wouldn't have seen her body there on Saturday night, though not of course impossible as we've had cases in the past where even search parties have missed bodies in areas they've searched. I'm still pretty undecided on this case, it could be premeditated... or not, he could have hidden her body that day... or not.

 

[Ironside]

I don't think it was premeditated, I think he just lost it that morning at her. The deli seems the most likely place it happened to me - to stab someone in the neck outdoors or in a car would be messy and more likely for someone to witness. Delis usually have easy to clean tiles, splashbacks and lots of blue roll to clear up the mess.

 

[Alyce]

Deliveries are from 10-2 and he was advertising for part time weekend staff before Xmas, so I assume there's a 2nd person who helps out from 10-2 to so that one can go off to do deliveries.

Yes, I thought this might have been why he came back to the shop at 9.30 ( according to reports ? ) .
He had to go back and re open, because there would have been someone coming in to help out from 10am, when, presumably, JL went out to do the deliveries.
Otherwise, I can't imagine why he would choose to go back to the Deli so quickly after what he had done. But then again, who knows. I'm thinking as a normal person would, which probably doesn't cover his way of thinking.

 

[Alyce]

*GRAPHIC*
So given the definition of sharp force vs. blunt force, and that most of the stories refer to stab wounds (plural) - "injury from sharp weapon that is deeper than it is wide", It's not slashing as that would be incised - longer than deep. IMO it would be pushing, penetrating as opposed to slicing, chopping. Plural 'wounds' can mean repeated attempts, not necessarily premeditated or purposeful but possibly passion, anger, panic etc.
As Primary Cause of Death it means not necessarily the Manner of Death which could also include less successful attempts like choking, beating etc. COD and MOD are not one and the same, IMO.
The time line makes it all seem very fast and the place of disposal raises very big questions regarding direction of travel - He was heading back toward the shop before he stopped and put her there. On that side of the road he could only be travelling toward, not away from the shops. In broad daylight?


MOO

BIB - Although he was heading in the general direction of his home/The Deli from that side of the Great Western Road,, I dont think he left Paige there on the Saturday morning, in daylight. I think he put here there at a later time - probably early Monday morning.
Following the route on Google Maps, going from the Deli up to GWR - he would, at that point, be on the opposite side of the carriageway, and would most likely have gone to Kilbowie roundabout to turn and then head downwards towards the Golf centre and the place where he left Paige. However, there is another pull in, earlier along that road, where he could possibly have left her. So, my thought is that he deliberately chose the spot, by the Golf centre, knowing that it was a place frequented by young folk ( and the site of a few fights over the years ) in the hope that Paige's body might be linked to such a disturbance.
I know there have been many cases where bodies have been found and it has seemed as though they could not have been hidden there for more than 5 minutes without someone finding them, but it has then been proven that the body had actually been there for several days. So it is not impossible that JL left Paige's body there immediately, but if so, he was taking a huge chance of not being caught in daylight.

 

[Alyce]

I was just pointing out for accuracy that the confirmed official cause of death has been given as "sharp force injuries" which includes stabbing but also includes other injuries such as slashing or chopping. Also I didn't mean it couldn't be premeditated if it was in the deli, I meant that if it did happen in the deli there is the option that it wasn't premeditated as well as the option that it was. Whereas if it happened outdoors he had made a conscious decision to take a weapon out with him which points towards premeditation.

Where Paige was found was around a mile from where she was last seen and was apparently somewhere that local teens would hang out at night, so it seems unusual that they wouldn't have seen her body there on Saturday night, though not of course impossible as we've had cases in the past where even search parties have missed bodies in areas they've searched. I'm still pretty undecided on this case, it could be premeditated... or not, he could have hidden her body that day... or not.

Agree - Killing in the Deli says it could have been spur of the moment, but killing elsewhere ( with the need to take a knife with him ) says premeditation.

 

[Steleheart]

BIB - Although he was heading in the general direction of his home/The Deli from that side of the Great Western Road,, I dont think he left Paige there on the Saturday morning, in daylight. I think he put here there at a later time - probably early Monday morning.
Following the route on Google Maps, going from the Deli up to GWR - he would, at that point, be on the opposite side of the carriageway, and would most likely have gone to Kilbowie roundabout to turn and then head downwards towards the Golf centre and the place where he left Paige. However, there is another pull in, earlier along that road, where he could possibly have left her. So, my thought is that he deliberately chose the spot, by the Golf centre, knowing that it was a place frequented by young folk ( and the site of a few fights over the years ) in the hope that Paige's body might be linked to such a disturbance.


I know there have been many cases where bodies have been found and it has seemed as though they could not have been hidden there for more than 5 minutes without someone finding them, but it has then been proven that the body had actually been there for several days. So it is not impossible that JL left Paige's body there immediately, but if so, he was taking a huge chance of not being caught in daylight.

Isn't it fenced off on the side of the golf center? There is a pull out on the road and the pics showed the forensics markers pretty close to the walk and the underbrush is pretty thick. I'm not sure it's visible from the store side. I made a picture of the Google street views. I'll try to bring it up.

 

[Steleheart]

I was just pointing out for accuracy that the confirmed official cause of death has been given as "sharp force injuries" which includes stabbing but also includes other injuries such as slashing or chopping. Also I didn't mean it couldn't be premeditated if it was in the deli, I meant that if it did happen in the deli there is the option that it wasn't premeditated as well as the option that it was. Whereas if it happened outdoors he had made a conscious decision to take a weapon out with him which points towards premeditation.

Where Paige was found was around a mile from where she was last seen and was apparently somewhere that local teens would hang out at night, so it seems unusual that they wouldn't have seen her body there on Saturday night, though not of course impossible as we've had cases in the past where even search parties have missed bodies in areas they've searched. I'm still pretty undecided on this case, it could be premeditated... or not, he could have hidden her body that day... or not.

Well chopping and slashing wasn't reported as stabbing was, so going by the facts of the case as we have it I see no reason to make up other non-facts that contradict what was reported. That's creative but contrary to what we know from the reports so far.

JMO

 

[mrazda71]

Agree - Killing in the Deli says it could have been spur of the moment, but killing elsewhere ( with the need to take a knife with him ) says premeditation.

If they had words in the Deli and then he went after her, taking a knife with him with the intent to scare her but something went badly wrong - that wouldn't be premeditated murder would it?

 

[mrazda71]

Worrying, vulnerable 14 year old missing for I0 days

https://tapatalk.com/shareLink?url=...6&share_tid=304396&share_fid=730&share_type=t
UK - Jade Lynch, 14, St Helens, 26th March March 2016

 

[Alyce]

If they had words in the Deli and then he went after her, taking a knife with him with the intent to scare her but something went badly wrong - that wouldn't be premeditated murder would it?

Ah yes, very good point. Could have been exactly that.

And then, even if JL had intended to kill, am sure a good counsel would argue that the intention was simply to scare Paige.

Incidentally, talking to a pal, they suggested that JL could have kept a knife in the car, because of doing Deli deliveries. I cant see that myself .......does anyone else think it feasible ?