GUILTY UK - Paige Doherty, 15, Clydebank, 19 March 2016

[mrazda71]

Ah yes, very good point. Could have been exactly that.

And then, even if JL had intended to kill, am sure a good counsel would argue that the intention was simply to scare Paige.

Incidentally, talking to a pal, they suggested that JL could have kept a knife in the car, because of doing Deli deliveries. I cant see that myself .......does anyone else think it feasible ?

Hmmmm yes, I can ... my brother used to be a taxi driver (regular car type not black Hackney cab type) and he's been mugged and attacked a few times and although he never had a knife in his taxi I know a few of the other taxi drivers used to have 'something' to hand.

So, I guess what I'm saying is, he may have had a knife for protection (especially if it's a bit of a rough area?) Rather than for cutting up a sandwich on the go ...

 

[ColourPurple]

Well chopping and slashing wasn't reported as stabbing was, so going by the facts of the case as we have it I see no reason to make up other non-facts that contradict what was reported. That's creative but contrary to what we know from the reports so far.

JMO

I'm not trying to make up "non facts" . Police had never confirmed that Paige was stabbed. They only confirmed that she had been murdered. It was reported in the MSM that she was "believed" to have been stabbed due to a "source" saying it was a violent death but police never actually officially confirmed that. Other papers may have then repeated that as fact. Now that we do have an official confirmed report of the cause of death it lists it as "sharp force injuries" and yes that term includes stabbing and more than likely means that the original source was correct, but all I've done is point out that that term also covers other methods too.

As I feel this is detracting from the main discussion , I'll move on and thank you to do the same.

 

[ColourPurple]

Ah yes, very good point. Could have been exactly that.

And then, even if JL had intended to kill, am sure a good counsel would argue that the intention was simply to scare Paige.

Incidentally, talking to a pal, they suggested that JL could have kept a knife in the car, because of doing Deli deliveries. I cant see that myself .......does anyone else think it feasible ?

Do you mean for protection? He only did daytime deliveries but I guess it's possible though it would also be illegal.

 

[ColourPurple]

I don't think it was premeditated, I think he just lost it that morning at her. The deli seems the most likely place it happened to me - to stab someone in the neck outdoors or in a car would be messy and more likely for someone to witness. Delis usually have easy to clean tiles, splashbacks and lots of blue roll to clear up the mess.

Outdoors in a wooded area seems the least messy to me as the ground would soak up most of the blood. I can also see something happening in the deli and him losing it but would he have had time to clean that amount of blood up ? He'd then have had to dispose of anything he'd used to clean it up too, mop, bucket ,blue roll etc. If he left the shop pretty quick after Paige entered would she have stopped bleeding at that point or continued to bleed ?

 

[ColourPurple]

BIB - Although he was heading in the general direction of his home/The Deli from that side of the Great Western Road,, I dont think he left Paige there on the Saturday morning, in daylight. I think he put here there at a later time - probably early Monday morning.
Following the route on Google Maps, going from the Deli up to GWR - he would, at that point, be on the opposite side of the carriageway, and would most likely have gone to Kilbowie roundabout to turn and then head downwards towards the Golf centre and the place where he left Paige. However, there is another pull in, earlier along that road, where he could possibly have left her. So, my thought is that he deliberately chose the spot, by the Golf centre, knowing that it was a place frequented by young folk ( and the site of a few fights over the years ) in the hope that Paige's body might be linked to such a disturbance.
I know there have been many cases where bodies have been found and it has seemed as though they could not have been hidden there for more than 5 minutes without someone finding them, but it has then been proven that the body had actually been there for several days. So it is not impossible that JL left Paige's body there immediately, but if so, he was taking a huge chance of not being caught in daylight.

Do we know if his car was actually seen near the place her body was found. With it being walking distance (OK 1.3 miles according to google) from his house and a shorter distance on foot than by road(by taking a short cut using foothpaths) , and with Paige being a tiny thing,I wondered if it was feasible he could have concealed Paige's body somewhere in something like a large rucksack and waited till it was dark and walked there in the early hours?

 

[mrazda71]

Do we know if his car was actually seen near the place her body was found. With it being walking distance from his house and a shorter distance on foot than by road(by taking a short cut using foothpaths) , and with Paige being a tiny thing,I wondered if it was feasible he could have concealed Paige's body somewhere in something like a large rucksack and waited till it was dark and walked there in the early hours?

There was speculation that his car had been seen near the place she was found but nothing reported.

 

[ColourPurple]

There was speculation that his car had been seen near the place she was found but nothing reported.

Thanks. It's about 1.3 miles on foot, not sure how feasible it is to walk that distance carrying some weight. Also I've seen him pictured with a dog but not sure if he owned it. The reason I mention that is this quote about the area Paige's body was found.

did you see anyone in the vicinity of Great Western Road near to a wooded area on the A82 on Monday?


"This is a very busy route for cars and is popular with joggers and dog walkers."

 

[Alyce]

Do you mean for protection? He only did daytime deliveries but I guess it's possible though it would also be illegal.

My pal was thinking JL might take a knife because he was delivering food - ie something needed cutting up - I couldnt see it myself, because I thought everything would be done in the Deli, before the delivery was packed up.

Hadnt thought of taking a knife for protection, as Mrazda suggested , but yes, I suppose he may have done that ( although as you say, also illegal, but presumably he could have got round it by saying it was to do with the food )

 

[Alyce]

Do we know if his car was actually seen near the place her body was found. With it being walking distance (OK 1.3 miles according to google) from his house and a shorter distance on foot than by road(by taking a short cut using foothpaths) , and with Paige being a tiny thing,I wondered if it was feasible he could have concealed Paige's body somewhere in something like a large rucksack and waited till it was dark and walked there in the early hours?

I did read that his car was seen at the spot where Paige's body was found - there is good CCTV apparently from the Golf Centre.
However, I cannot remember where I read this, I will go back and have a look, see if I can find the article ( if it hasn't been removed )

eta .......... just seen Mrazda's comment. It is possible I saw the comment on FB and not in an article ( I genuinely cant remember, I read a lot over a short period of time ) in which case it is just speculation.

Again, I will search later today when not so busy.

 

[Alyce]

I did read that his car was seen at the spot where Paige's body was found - there is good CCTV apparently from the Golf Centre.
However, I cannot remember where I read this, I will go back and have a look, see if I can find the article ( if it hasn't been removed )

eta .......... just seen Mrazda's comment. It is possible I saw the comment on FB and not in an article ( I genuinely cant remember, I read a lot over a short period of time ) in which case it is just speculation.

Again, I will search later today when not so busy.

I tried to edit this post but the edit button has gone already...

so just to update. I cannot find anything in MSM re JLs car being seen near to the site where Paige's body was found. Now that could be because so many articles have been pulled, but I am going to go with Mrazda's comment and say that I must have read it on FB, in which case it is only hearsay.

 

[suzyjackson]

If they had words in the Deli and then he went after her, taking a knife with him with the intent to scare her but something went badly wrong - that wouldn't be premeditated murder would it?

I'm finding it hard to think of what might have happened in such a short time after Paige went into the deli.

Unless there was some kind of prior relationship between them how on earth could things have escalated so quickly, I literally can't think of any scenario that would make sense, Have there been any suggestions that JL had any previous inappropriate behaviour towards women. I remember that once Alexander Pacteau was known to be the last person to see Karen Buckley there were posts on social media about his past and it wasn't a surprise that he was guilty.

 

[Fishhunter]

Maybe....JL had an argument with his partner the night before he served PD in the deli, watched her leave, knowing the direction she was heading, went after her with the intention to rape her maybe wearing a balaclava, and to use the knife to force her into it. when the balaclava/mask slipped and she recognised him making him panic he killed her...wait this sounds far too familiar!

 

[Steleheart]

Maybe....JL had an argument with his partner the night before he served PD in the deli, watched her leave, knowing the direction she was heading, went after her with the intention to rape her maybe wearing a balaclava, and to use the knife to force her into it. when the balaclava/mask slipped and she recognised him making him panic he killed her...wait this sounds far too familiar!

I had not read about the balaclava. Do we have a link so that we can sleuth that fact? Also I have not seen any info about his prior relationship with his partner. Is there any information about his family relationships?

 

[Steleheart]

I'm finding it hard to think of what might have happened in such a short time after Paige went into the deli.

Unless there was some kind of prior relationship between them how on earth could things have escalated so quickly, I literally can't think of any scenario that would make sense, Have there been any suggestions that JL had any previous inappropriate behaviour towards women. I remember that once Alexander Pacteau was known to be the last person to see Karen Buckley there were posts on social media about his past and it wasn't a surprise that he was guilty.

BBM;
We will likely never know of previous contacts regardless of how benign they may be.
I knew a guy who thought that because a girl flirted with him he thought he had a chance. She was of age BTW. When she found out she was sad because she was just being playful.

But the point is that people suffer delusions IMO. And crimes of passion include those crimes that result from actual as well as perceived relationships.
Young girls are not able to differentiate between actual relationships and fantasy.

Validating their attractiveness is fun to them and they have limited awareness of boundaries.

That is why responsible adults are so important.
That is also why the law protects those children.
That is why there are 'age of consent ' laws.

This poor dear had no responsibility in her death.
It doesn't matter what relationship existed, if it did - it's not her fault.

MOO

 

[anonypotomous]

I'm not trying to make up "non facts" . Police had never confirmed that Paige was stabbed. They only confirmed that she had been murdered. It was reported in the MSM that she was "believed" to have been stabbed due to a "source" saying it was a violent death but police never actually officially confirmed that. Other papers may have then repeated that as fact. Now that we do have an official confirmed report of the cause of death it lists it as "sharp force injuries" and yes that term includes stabbing and more than likely means that the original source was correct, but all I've done is point out that that term also covers other methods too.

As I feel this is detracting from the main discussion , I'll move on and thank you to do the same.

I appreciated your post very much.

 

[mrazda71]

I had not read about the balaclava. Do we have a link so that we can sleuth that fact? Also I have not seen any info about his prior relationship with his partner. Is there any information about his family relationships?

There is no balaclava! The original poster (I believe) was being sarcastic and making reference to the Becky Watts where the murderer claimed to have had a plan to kidnap and scare the victim but his 'balaclava slipped' and she saw his face so he then 'accidently' killed her ...

I believe there definitely could've been some kind of 'relationship' between John and Paige - of course, that would've been an inappropriate one and in no way am I saying that Paige was at fault, just that she was a girl who's been brought up to be a lot more independent/confident than a lot of girls her age but who at the same time was incredibly vulnerable so I can see that there would be an attraction albeit inappropriate AND illegal.

 

[Hatfield]

I don't think it was premeditated, I think he just lost it that morning at her. The deli seems the most likely place it happened to me - to stab someone in the neck outdoors or in a car would be messy and more likely for someone to witness. Delis usually have easy to clean tiles, splashbacks and lots of blue roll to clear up the mess.

I am also thinking maybe some sort of argument where he lost it. Not sure what type of discussion or argument would make him flip out though.

What is "blue roll" ? Is that some sort of common cleaner thing that is used in UK?

 

[mrazda71]

I am also thinking maybe some sort of argument where he lost it. Not sure what type of discussion or argument would make him flip out though.

What is "blue roll" ? Is that some sort of common cleaner thing that is used in UK?

Blue roll is a large roll of absorbant tissue usually in retail settings - like a huge blue toilet roll

 

[leep]

I am also thinking maybe some sort of argument where he lost it. Not sure what type of discussion or argument would make him flip out though.

What is "blue roll" ? Is that some sort of common cleaner thing that is used in UK?

It's a disposable cloth/paper towel cleaning product.

Sent from my K013 using Tapatalk

 

[Geobee83]

Just picked up this weeks (The Digger) there and has a story about this murder

"DIGGER PULLED OUR STORY TO MAKE SURE KILLER CANT CHEAT JUSTICE"

The Digger published a series of stories on our website hours before the police announced a man had been arrested for the murder of Paige Doherty two weeks ago.

Our website stories reached over 160,000 people in less than 24 hours and put our page likes up to over 83,000. In two days there was over 2000 likes.
We took the stories down as John Leathem , 31, of Clydebank appeared in court charged with her murder.
Though the allegations were published on our Facebook before he was charged wee took legal advice and decided to remove the copy as it was thought it might prejudice further court proceedings.
The page also attracted over 1000 comments some of which were contempt of court. Monitoring all the comments 24 hours a day from the public on the Digger's Page is simply impossible. It's also feared that police in charge of the investigation threatened to arrest reporters who had gone to the family home before Leathem was arrested.
A source said: "There were a couple of reporters in the house when the cops arrived. They were told not to go to the house and if they came back they were getting the jail."