UK - Prince Andrew accused of underage sexual relationship, 1999 - 2002

[MrsWatson]

Prince Andrew cannot call the primary witness who would clear his name because he committed suicide. Hopefully Giuffre can produce the 8 young girls that she alleges participated in an orgy with Prince Andrew.

Or the Prince could come up with all the evidence showing that he was not physically there. All the Royals have a calendar and his protection team will have minute by minute logs of his activities. Where are those?

 

[otto]

Is the best defense that Prince Andrew's very high priced legal team can come up with is that Ms Giuffre's address is wrong? That's pathetic. Where are the receipts showing that Prince Andrew couldn't possibly be involved? They certainly aren't coming out with all sorts of denials with evidence to back it up. If they had that sort of evidence, why haven't they produced it to her legal team, hoping she will drop the case?

I suppose some view the act of swearing false affidavits as insignificant, others view it as indicative of an action containing false allegations.

 

[MrsWatson]

I suppose some view the act of swearing false affidavits as insignificant, others view it as indicative of an action containing false allegations.

And some view the repeated, aggressive avoidance of service of court papers as insignificant, others view it as indicative of where there is smoke, there is fire.

 

[otto]

Which promptly put her in the path of Madame Maxwell to be trafficked again, so maybe her dad shouldn't get so much credit for getting her life back on track. He obviously wasn't keeping such a close eye.

At the time, Giuffre was 17-18 years old, had a boyfriend and was living a normal social life for her age. Was it her father's responsibility to govern her life at that age?

 

[tayaway]

Or the Prince could come up with all the evidence showing that he was not physically there. All the Royals have a calendar and his protection team will have minute by minute logs of his activities. Where are those?

Those docs were destroyed and the Met refused to cooperate, b/c, you know, royalty.

Daily Mail 2020:

Earlier this year [2020] the former Royal guard told this newspaper that he recalled making a complaint to his boss about allegedly abusive conduct by Andrew when he arrived at the Palace in a car driven by his personal protection officer.

To confirm his account, the ex-officer – who had a 23-year career with the police – asked for access to his shift roster at Buckingham Palace and other documents. Last week, 149 days after making the request, he finally received a reply from a caseworker at the Met’s Information Rights Unit in Sidcup, Kent. An email said: ‘I conducted a number of searches. However the Retention and Disposal Policy states that Duty Records and Annual Leave records are only held for 2 years. Therefore, there is no information the Commissioner is required to supply you.’

Mirror 2020:

Police have come under fire for refusing to release details about Prince Andrew's bodyguards' movements on the night he allegedly had sex with a teenage girl.

...Mirror Online submitted a Freedom of Information Act request asking for details of his police bodyguards' movements on that day - but the Met has knocked it back, claiming the information could put national security at risk and aid criminals.

The Met's decision has been branded "daft" by a security expert, and an anti-monarchy campaigner branded the explanation "nonsense".

 

[MrsWatson]

Those docs were destroyed and the Met refused to cooperate, b/c, you know, royalty.

Daily Mail 2020:

Earlier this year [2020] the former Royal guard told this newspaper that he recalled making a complaint to his boss about allegedly abusive conduct by Andrew when he arrived at the Palace in a car driven by his personal protection officer.

To confirm his account, the ex-officer – who had a 23-year career with the police – asked for access to his shift roster at Buckingham Palace and other documents. Last week, 149 days after making the request, he finally received a reply from a caseworker at the Met’s Information Rights Unit in Sidcup, Kent. An email said: ‘I conducted a number of searches. However the Retention and Disposal Policy states that Duty Records and Annual Leave records are only held for 2 years. Therefore, there is no information the Commissioner is required to supply you.’

Mirror 2020:

Police have come under fire for refusing to release details about Prince Andrew's bodyguards' movements on the night he allegedly had sex with a teenage girl.

...Mirror Online submitted a Freedom of Information Act request asking for details of his police bodyguards' movements on that day - but the Met has knocked it back, claiming the information could put national security at risk and aid criminals.

The Met's decision has been branded "daft" by a security expert, and an anti-monarchy campaigner branded the explanation "nonsense".

Well, that's not shady at all, is it?

 

[sds71]

• Johanna Sjoberg lured by Ghislaine Maxwell into Epstein’s ‘pyramid of abuse’
• Now 41, she alleges it was there that the Queen’s second son groped her
• She claims alleged incident took place at Epstein's Manhattan mansion
• Ms Sjoberg also claims she and Andrew slept together in a massage room

Key figure in case against Prince Andrew is former student who claims she met him at Epstein mansion | Daily Mail Online

Ms. Sjoberg’s testimony also corroborates Ms. Giuffre’s account of being lent out to Prince Andrew by Defendant
https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/sjoberg-brief.pdf

 

[otto]

Those docs were destroyed and the Met refused to cooperate, b/c, you know, royalty.

Daily Mail 2020:

Earlier this year [2020] the former Royal guard told this newspaper that he recalled making a complaint to his boss about allegedly abusive conduct by Andrew when he arrived at the Palace in a car driven by his personal protection officer.

To confirm his account, the ex-officer – who had a 23-year career with the police – asked for access to his shift roster at Buckingham Palace and other documents. Last week, 149 days after making the request, he finally received a reply from a caseworker at the Met’s Information Rights Unit in Sidcup, Kent. An email said: ‘I conducted a number of searches. However the Retention and Disposal Policy states that Duty Records and Annual Leave records are only held for 2 years. Therefore, there is no information the Commissioner is required to supply you.’

Mirror 2020:

Police have come under fire for refusing to release details about Prince Andrew's bodyguards' movements on the night he allegedly had sex with a teenage girl.

...Mirror Online submitted a Freedom of Information Act request asking for details of his police bodyguards' movements on that day - but the Met has knocked it back, claiming the information could put national security at risk and aid criminals.

The Met's decision has been branded "daft" by a security expert, and an anti-monarchy campaigner branded the explanation "nonsense".

What does that mean - all documents about day-to-day activities of royals are a national security level - can't make an exception?

Does it mean that Prince Andrew was at Maxwell's house on a specific day? Would it include the time he arrived and left? We already know he was there. Is there a reason that day matters?

Giuffre said that she was at a club with Prince Andrew, or met him there? Have any photos of the prince at the party club emerged?

Is the date important as it relates to Giuffre's age?

 

[escape2sc]

Those docs were destroyed and the Met refused to cooperate, b/c, you know, royalty.

Daily Mail 2020:

Earlier this year [2020] the former Royal guard told this newspaper that he recalled making a complaint to his boss about allegedly abusive conduct by Andrew when he arrived at the Palace in a car driven by his personal protection officer.

To confirm his account, the ex-officer – who had a 23-year career with the police – asked for access to his shift roster at Buckingham Palace and other documents. Last week, 149 days after making the request, he finally received a reply from a caseworker at the Met’s Information Rights Unit in Sidcup, Kent. An email said: ‘I conducted a number of searches. However the Retention and Disposal Policy states that Duty Records and Annual Leave records are only held for 2 years. Therefore, there is no information the Commissioner is required to supply you.’

Mirror 2020:

Police have come under fire for refusing to release details about Prince Andrew's bodyguards' movements on the night he allegedly had sex with a teenage girl.

...Mirror Online submitted a Freedom of Information Act request asking for details of his police bodyguards' movements on that day - but the Met has knocked it back, claiming the information could put national security at risk and aid criminals.

The Met's decision has been branded "daft" by a security expert, and an anti-monarchy campaigner branded the explanation "nonsense".

According to this article only the records for the protection officers were destroyed and also states the MET would not release records of Andrew’s body guards movements because it would be a national security issue.
This article does not address the records kept by Buckingham Palace or Andrew. such as financial records showing travel arrangements and costs. When Epstein’s pilot’s flight logs were first released, I compared the dates Andrew was on Epstein’s plane with Andrew’s Court Circular record. The Court Circular shows Andrew in or near the location Epstein’s plane departed or arrived. (The CC placed Andrew at a location prior to plane departure or after plane arrival)
I shared the results of my research in one of the Andrew threads but do not remember which one. The Court Circular only reports on the royals official business including when they leave and return to the UK and locations they visit except when their departure from or their return started/ended or was interrupted with personal time. There were times Andrew would be in the U.S. on official business in NY, Miami and LA where he would disappear from
the CC for a couple days and reappear on the CC several states from his last appearance. For example he once ended official business in NY, was on Epstein’s plane to Miami, attended an event in Miami, was on Epstein’s plane to the island and showed up on the CC in the UK a week or two later.

 

[tayaway]

What does that mean - all documents about day-to-day activities of royals are a national security level - can't make an exception?

Does it mean that Prince Andrew was at Maxwell's house on a specific day? Would it include the time he arrived and left? We already know he was there. Is there a reason that day matters?

Giuffre said that she was at a club with Prince Andrew, or met him there? Have any photos of the prince at the party club emerged?

Is the date important as it relates to Giuffre's age?

Guardian 2020: At least one witness is willing to speak of PA at the club:

The US lawyer Lisa Bloom, who is representing the victims of the royal’s former friend and convicted sex offender, Jeffrey Epstein, said Shukri Walker recalled seeing Prince Andrew at Tramp nightclub in Mayfair and had come forward to support Virginia Giuffre’s version of events.

MOO: Regarding witnesses, who wants to admit to being a part of that lifestyle? How many are scared of the power of the monarch? Look at that police officer who filed a complaint against PA and got zero cooperation from his own workplace - if he can't get the legal due process from his own workplace, who else is going to bother? No justice for even LE? PA has long been known as 'Randy Andy,' and for good reason, but who cares, he's part of a powerful family with money up the wazoo. Victims in our society have and continue to be shamed and blamed for speaking out, so whether VRG's accounts are true or not, other potential victims may rightly figure the negatives outweigh the positives in coming forward.

 

[tayaway]

According to this article only the records for the protection officers were destroyed and also states the MET would not release records of Andrew’s body guards movements because it would be a national security issue.
This article does not address the records kept by Buckingham Palace or Andrew. such as financial records showing travel arrangements and costs. When Epstein’s pilot’s flight logs were first released, I compared the dates Andrew was on Epstein’s plane with Andrew’s Court Circular record. The Court Circular shows Andrew in or near the location Epstein’s plane departed or arrived. (The CC placed Andrew at a location prior to plane departure or after plane arrival)
I shared the results of my research in one of the Andrew threads but do not remember which one.

Good point about BP records! CC records lining up with JE plane schedule on those dates? Interesting.

 

[Legally Bland]

According to this article only the records for the protection officers were destroyed and also states the MET would not release records of Andrew’s body guards movements because it would be a national security issue.
This article does not address the records kept by Buckingham Palace or Andrew. such as financial records showing travel arrangements and costs. When Epstein’s pilot’s flight logs were first released, I compared the dates Andrew was on Epstein’s plane with Andrew’s Court Circular record. The Court Circular shows Andrew in or near the location Epstein’s plane departed or arrived. (The CC placed Andrew at a location prior to plane departure or after plane arrival)
I shared the results of my research in one of the Andrew threads but do not remember which one. The Court Circular only reports on the royals official business including when they leave and return to the UK and locations they visit except when their departure from or their return started/ended or was interrupted with personal time. There were times Andrew would be in the U.S. on official business in NY, Miami and LA where he would disappear from
the CC for a couple days and reappear on the CC several states from his last appearance. For example he once ended official business in NY, was on Epstein’s plane to Miami, attended an event in Miami, was on Epstein’s plane to the island and showed up on the CC in the UK a week or two later.

I remember that post, it was great work and worth digging up again:

I made these notes for myself regarding the flight records in comparison to the Court Circular (official record of the Royal's public engagements.)

Dates from Flight Log and Pilot's deposition for when Prince Andrew flew with Epstein compared to the Court Circular for Royal engagements
1999
Flight 1203 Feb 9th New Jersey to St Thomas
Passengers: Epstein, Maxwell, ET, AP, Prince Andrew, Steve Burgess
Flight 1204 Feb 12th St. Thomas to Palm Beach
Epstein, Maxwell, ET, Prince Andrew, Steve Burgess, Gwendoline Beck, Claire Hazel, Anna
Court Circular does not show events for Prince Andrew for this time frame
2000
FLIGHT 1338 May 12 New Jersey to Palm Beach
JE, GM, ET, AP, Prince Andrew, Bodyguard, Alexa (?) , 1 male
Court Circular- Prince Andrew was in the UK on UK the 10th and in US 11th returned to UK on the 15th
**next flight shows Epstein visiting Andrew at Sandringham:
FLIGHT 1429 Dec 7 Luton to Marham AFB UK
JE, GM, Kelly Spamm, Tom Pritzker, 1 female
then pilot repositions aircraft to EGSH Sandringham (Norwich England)
FLIGHT 1431 DEC 9 JE & company leave Sandringham for Palm Beach
2001
*FLIGHT 1490 April 11th New Jersey to St. Thomas
Deposition - JE, GM, Prince Andrew, Banu, VR, Johanna
Flight log – JE, GM, AP, BK, VR, Johanna
Court Circular- Prince Andrew in US
*FLIGHT 1524
July 4th 2001 St Thomas to Palm Beach
Deposition - JE, Prince Andrew, VR and 1 female
Flight log – JE, AP, VR, 1 female
*FLIGHT 1525 July 8th Palm beach to New Jersey
Deposition - JE, Gm, Emmy Taylor, Prince Andrew, VR, Sheridan Gibson, 1 female
Flight log – JE, GM, ET,AP, VR, Sheridan
Court Circular – Prince Andrew had events in the UK on the UK date of July 4th then no events until July 11th
*Flight 2 August 7.2001 New York to New Mexico
Deposition - JE, GM, Emmy Taylor, Prince Andrew, 2 females
Flight log – JE, GM, ET, AP, 2 females
Court Circular- no events listed
*FLIGHT 49 January 17, 2002 New York to St Thomas
Deposition - JE, GM, Sarah Kellen, Prince Andrew, Cindy Lopez, Johanna and 1 female
Flight Log – JE, GM, SK, AP, Cindy Lopez, Joanne, 1 female
Court Circular- no events listed
*FLIGHT 57 Feb 9th 2002 Miami to New York
Deposition - JE, GM, Sarah Kellen, Prince Andrew, Bill Clinton 4 SS
Flight Log – Bill Clinton, 4 Secret Service, 2 males, 1 female, JE, GM, SK, AP
Court Circular in South Africa Feb 4th - 9th London event the 11th
(this is the only flight mentioned in the deposition where Court Circular has Andrew in a different location. In the deposition, both attorneys (Virginia's and Maxwell's) were present and referencing a flight log. There were no objections on the accuracy of the flight log information)
2006
FLIGHT 1908 Sept 1 Luton to Edinburgh
GM, Prince Andrew, Katie Braeng, Cransnasky
The following is a quick search of times when Andrew was noted on the Court Circular to be in the US as Trade Envoy and the locations of Epstein's plane during the time frame.
Caption under a Getty Image of Andrew Feb 2008: Organized a private jet for a trip to the US at a reported cost of £100,000. The Duke is seen here at the opening of the Fresh 'N' Easy store in LA in 2008.
Another caption for Getty Image of Andrew February 2008
Prince Andrew, the Duke of York, kicks off a trip to California by attending
the grand opening of a Fresh & Easy Neighborhood Market store in a
predominantly African-American neighborhood on February 7, 2008 in
Compton, California. The prince is visiting the region in his capacity as
the United Kingdom's Special Representative for Trade and Investment.
Later, the prince will attend a dinner meeting of the British-American
Business Council, Los Angeles. David McNew/Getty Image
From a site "the Royal Forum" in February 2008 a poster posted the following when asked what his US schedule was...
“It was posted on his website The Duke of York > Home , however, it has been removed since the tabloids questioned his use of a private jet. This is the section that disappeared.."
February 2008
Visit to the USA (Miami, Lakes Charles, Los Angeles, San Diego, Phoenix, Atlanta and New York)
6th Morning - Visit to the University of Miami Leonard M. Miller School of Medicine.
Afternoon - Visit to Trunkline LNG, Lake Charles.
7th Morning - Visit to the Tesco Fresh and Easy Store, Compton, Los Angeles.
Afternoon - Lunch hosted by HM Consul General; visit to Broadcom, Orange County.
Evening - Keynote speech, Los Angeles.
8th Morning - Visit to BT Americas (El Segundo).
Afternoon - Visit to Capital Group; visit to Avery Dennison Inc (Pasadena).
Evening - Dinner hosted by HM Consul General.
9th Afternoon - Lunch hosted by HM Consul General with financial service industry experts.
11th Morning - Visit to Allergan, Orange County. The Duke of York makes a keynote speech.
Afternoon - Visit to Science Applications International Corporation - SAIC (San Diego); visit to Sempra Energy.
12th Morning - Visit to Resolution Copper Mine (Rio Tinto).
Afternoon - Visit to Honeywell Aerospace; visit to GoDaddy.com.
Evening - Reception hosted Governor of Arizona and Mayor of Phoenix; dinner for leading CEOs in Arizona.
13th Afternoon - Visit to CNN Centre; visit to the Coca-Cola Company.
14th Afternoon - Meeting with the Consul General; meeting with the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey at the World Trade Centre site; visit to the Bank of New York Mellon.
15th Morning - Meeting with the Sarnoff Corporation; meeting with President and Chief Financial Officer, NBYT.
Afternoon - Meeting with Raytheon.
Evening - Design Reception to celebrate the best of UK/US creative industries.”
Court Circular has the events listed above . Court Circular's last entry for PA prior to the February events is announcing him returning to the UK from a business trip to Switzerland on January 25th . CC does not have an entry for PA leaving the UK for the US - he took a private plane according to info above. PA is unaccounted for until he appears at the University of Miami the morning of Feb. 6th.


Epstein’s Plane location
Epstein is at St Thomas from Mid January till Feb 5th when he goes to New Jersey. On Feb 8th Epstein heads to Sante Fe. PA does not have any events in Cali from evening Feb 9th till morning Feb 11th. Epstein leaves Sante Fe on the 12th for Miami then heads to New Jersey airport on the 13th. PA arrives in NY evening of 13th leaves for UK evening of 15th. (he had engagements listed above) Epstein leaves NY for St Thomas on 15th.
To be fair and as accurate as possible ..I have some flights with an * in front of the word flight ( *Flight). The flight logs for those flights do not have Andrew’s name spelled out like on the other flights in the flight logs. During the pilots deposition with Virginia and Maxwell’s attorneys referencing a flight log,the pilot named Andrew as being on those flights No objections were made to the accuracy of the flight logs during the deposition. I would imagine the accuracy of the flight logs would be an important issue for Maxwell’s attorney but am not sure if this would have been something objected to in a deposition or saved for a court hearing if the defamation case would have moved forward.
AP on the flight logs...AP appeared several times, once with the notation as chef. Adam Perry Lang is in Epstein’s black book listed as chef. Adam Perry Lang is a chef with his own restaurants and several books published. According to an interview of Adam Perry Lang, he stated he was a private chef in 2001 - 2002 (2003 ?) but did not name the individual. He also mentioned being a chef on a ranch in New Mexico. There were some flights where Adam’s name was spelled out on the departing flight and the initial AP on the return flight. On a few of the flights the pilot stated Prince Andrew was on there is only the initial AP listed on the flight log. Again I would assume the accuracy of the flight logs would be an important issue for Maxwell’s attorney but again neither attorney objected to the accuracy of the flight log used during the pilot’s deposition.

https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/1507315/epstein-flight-manifests.pdf
Court Circular

NY - Ghislaine Maxwell, Jeffrey Epstein confidante, arrested on Sex Abuse charges, July 2020 #2

 

[otto]

Isn't the photo taken at Maxwell's house in London? We know Prince Andrew met Virginia Roberts. It might have been at a London club.

Do her lawyers want Prince Andrew's itinerary for that day? Would Giuffre simultaneously provide an itinerary of her time around meeting Prince Andrew?

What is the key piece of evidence - his schedule that day? Something only someone who saw him naked would know?

 

[CrimeAway]

Prince Andrew MUST face criminal trial, says Jeffrey Epstein rape victim | Daily Mail Online

 

[Legally Bland]

Isn't the photo taken at Maxwell's house in London? We know Prince Andrew met Virginia Roberts. It might have been at a London club.

Do her lawyers want Prince Andrew's itinerary for that day? Would Giuffre simultaneously provide an itinerary of her time around meeting Prince Andrew?

What is the key piece of evidence - his schedule that day? Something only someone who saw him naked would know?

The key piece of evidence could very well be the testimony of the accuser, just as it was in GM's trial.

 

[otto]

The key piece of evidence could very well be the testimony of the accuser, just as it was in GM's trial.

Sure, but it has to be more than he said/ she said. Giuffre mentions an orgy with 9 young girls, including herself. If two come forward, that corroborates the claim.

With Maxwell, there were four witnesses to corroborate.

 

[Legally Bland]

Sure, but it has to be more than he said/ she said. Giuffre mentions an orgy with 9 young girls, including herself. If two come forward, that corroborates the claim.

With Maxwell, there were four witnesses to corroborate.

The he said/she said argument only works if both parties have equal credibility. I don't, for a second, believe Andrew is going to produce a note from his doctor to say he was unable to perspire between 1982 and 2001.

There is some corroboration of VRG's claims that we already know of. VRG's version is she was abused by PA in NY, London and Little St. James. So far there is photo evidence putting PA and VR together in London, Steve Scully prepared to testify under oath to put them together in Little St. James and Johanna Sjoberg's deposition putting them together in New York.

In her civil case v Maxwell, VRG named over 70 individuals likely to have discoverable information (some won't be relevant to this case).

#1090, Att. #38 in Giuffre v. Maxwell (S.D.N.Y., 1:15-cv-07433) – CourtListener.com

I don't think we can judge the evidence when we don't know what it is yet.

 

[otto]

The he said/she said argument only works if both parties have equal credibility. I don't, for a second, believe Andrew is going to produce a note from his doctor to say he was unable to perspire between 1982 and 2001.

There is some corroboration of VRG's claims that we already know of. VRG's version is she was abused by PA in NY, London and Little St. James. So far there is photo evidence putting PA and VR together in London, Steve Scully prepared to testify under oath to put them together in Little St. James and Johanna Sjoberg's deposition putting them together in New York.

In her civil case v Maxwell, VRG named over 70 individuals likely to have discoverable information (some won't be relevant to this case).

#1090, Att. #38 in Giuffre v. Maxwell (S.D.N.Y., 1:15-cv-07433) – CourtListener.com

I don't think we can judge the evidence when we don't know what it is yet.

I want to keep an open mind, and to recognize that Royals are held to a higher standard. Stepping down since the start of the scandal suggests that he is on standby pending the outcome of the legal action. If he cannot clear his name, but is in fact innocent, that sucks.

 

[Kristin Esq.]

Is the best defense that Prince Andrew's very high priced legal team can come up with is that Ms Giuffre's address is wrong? That's pathetic. Where are the receipts showing that Prince Andrew couldn't possibly be involved? They certainly aren't coming out with all sorts of denials with evidence to back it up. If they had that sort of evidence, why haven't they produced it to her legal team, hoping she will drop the case?

It's not a best defense, it's a technicality. There are two ways to get into federal courts, federal question and diversity. She got in based on diversity and if she doesn't meet the requirements, then the judge can dismiss the case.

ETA: They have requested limited discovery for this issue, and to stay the rest of the discovery. They will provide them futher evidence as to whether or not the case should be dismissed on this issue.

 

[sds71]

Prince Andrew makes 'unprecedented' request for all witness testimony in sex abuse case to be kept secret | Calgary Herald

Lawyers for the Duke’s accuser, Virginia Giuffre, said there was “no logic or authority for such a provision.”

Before challenging the court’s jurisdiction, the Duke had been due to send proposed dates and locations for his own deposition by Monday this week.

He had already asked for a three-week extension to respond to discovery requests “in light of the holidays and COVID.”

McCawley expressed frustration with the latest attempt to delay proceedings on an issue that could have been raised sooner.

She said they had asked three times for the Duke to select a date for his own deposition yet he had never responded.

McCawley also noted that as part of the discovery process, the Duke’s lawyers had already asked for proof that Giuffre was a citizen of Colorado and that they were due to respond with the relevant documents by Jan 14, as previously agreed.

Ms McCawley told Mr Brettler that they “will be able to establish” that the New York federal court had jurisdiction.

But she said that even if not, Ms Giuffre “would simply refile her claims” in New York state court, warning: “The parties in this action will need to resolve this dispute one way or another.”